Ford in a wide brim fur felt pork pie

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:36 pm

Do not fear the pork pie! It is a macho hat. Worn by Little Joe in Bonanza, Matt Dillon in Gunsmoke and Clint Eastwood in those spaghetti westerns. This is Ford on Gunsmoke. Not a lot of mushroom, but some on the right side. The next guy over has raised the crown on his pork pie, leaving a LINE. The third guy has that nice little mushrooming bulge at the back corner. In another shot, that black hat turns out to be a pork pie as well.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:21 pm

I need to thank Dakota Ellison, Indy Doc, and Agent 5 for finding me enlargments of this little pic , where it looks like there is a line entering the left side of that out of place bash.

Problem was, those pics diminished it's outline. No one responded to my last post in that thread, so I don't know if any of you saw this- Here is that line. It is a bump with a shadow under it.

It's the pork pie line. There is another bump above it- that is where the inner pork pie line would be. Again, this indicates the line was there in England and North Africa.

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:11 pm

I'm still not sure where this line or bump is exactly, but shouldn't it be visable in just about every profile of the hat then? Not disputing here just lookin' for more evidence. Also Clint Eastwood's "man with no name" hat is the second coolest hat in film history! Well maybe its the first!... hmmm maybe not.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:23 pm

This is the first scene I noticed it in, and it's the most obvious.

Go to this page to see a lot more http://www.raidershat.com/pagethree.html

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:55 pm

You certainly make a good argument with all the bumps, humps, dips, and such that you have replicated with your research hats and screen shots. (looking at your "page 3" link) Some times I can't tell from pictures you posted at COW, but those on your page are pretty obvious what you are pointing out and the demo hat's you use have replicated them well.

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:05 pm

After taking a look at that "page 3" I have to agree with Indy Doc.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:14 pm

I think it'd be hilarious if this were the case. It'd mean every one of us has had our hats wrong from day one.

This theory is your best yet, 3K.

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:25 pm

Yea make mine a converted pork-pie then will ya!

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:42 am

agent5 wrote:I think it'd be hilarious if this were the case. It'd mean every one of us has had our hats wrong from day one.

It certainly would.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:55 am

Only thing you guys are ignoring is.............if the original hat was sat on, this would give the same line!!! All that it is, is a crease line, and that is all. It could have been creased when the telescope was put in, or it may have been creased when it was sat on. Or stepped on, or crushed. There are other explanations. Funny how it only appears on the distressed hats. Show it to me on the newer hats he wears. It would be here too, in fact, it would show up more since the hat was newer.

Perhaps I am missing something, but everything shown has another explanation. The evidence, is not evidence. Not when you can get the same look from doing what they said was done to the hat in the distressing it. And at least what they said is documented.

Lets just say that HJ had a hat with the straight sided block, and it was creased with a telescope crease. When the order was placed by the costumer, do you really think she specified a telecope crown, for a fedora? She then took all of the hats and turned them into fedoras? A bit of a stretch.

I do not buy into this, especially when there are more believable explanations. Perhaps Lucas was gonna put Indy in a Croc Dundee hat, and then had a change of heart and decided to go with a fedora? Naw, I think he was after a fedora from the get-go. If so, why start with a totally different hat style, and then turn it into a fedora? Why not take an open crown hat and make a fedora from it? Makes more sense to me, but heck, I am a simple minded guy. Fedora

fedoralover · Post by **fedoralover** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:03 am

Then I'm simple minded too fedora as I agree with you.

fedoralover

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:39 am

Then I'm simple minded too fedora as I agree with you.

Uh, I hope it has nothing to do with our age fedoralover!!

I applaud 3M$'s quest, so do not get the wrong idea folks. I just want a pic of a newer Raiders fedora with the telescope creases, instead of the distressed hat that becomes a Rorchache (sp?) blot. A new hat would show the creases much better, because the crease lines would not have the chance to relax a bit, and would be sharp and very apparent. Fedora

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:57 am

I want to go on record to applaud 3m$'s tenacity in his field of research.

There comes a point when it looks like we (in a general sense) try to make the "evidence" (crease, tear, etc.) fit the theory.

One should always look to the simplest solutions. Occam's Razor and all that. Nadoolman stated she was looking for a fedora style hat. Something distinct yet everydayman-ish. They purchased their hats at a hat shop, that has many style hats to choose from. This was no leftover stock from a thrift store. Ford was fitted with a selected hat. Why would anyone choose a porkpie and have to reblock it?? Of all the styles?.. Isn't that like buying a Volkswagon to rebuild into a Ferrari? Is there any evidence that the Herbert Johnson shop was out of open crownded fedoras at the time?

If one chooses to reblock a porkpie hat to recreate every line in Ford's fedora, that is o.k. However, one cannot say that is how the costume designer did it! Big difference here. Nadoolman stated rolling up, sitting on and bashing the hat around. Could this lead to a crease along the crown?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:18 pm

Nadoolman stated rolling up, sitting on and bashing the hat around. Could this lead to a crease along the crown?

Technically, yes. However, that doesn't mean that if you sit on it it IS going to make that crease. You can't just say that if you do it's bound to crease. I'd imagine it wouldn't crease the same way each time.

Hey, I'm just keeping an open mind.

Nobody can say for sure what Nadoolman did and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it turned out that this theory were true. What you may think is the dumbest thing in the world, may have been done to get the costume the way they wanted it. After all, it's Hollywood we're dealing with. The epicenter of illusion. All I'm saying is, who knows? It's best to keep an open mind than to shut it out.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:24 pm

Is there any evidence that the Herbert Johnson shop was out of open crownded fedoras at the time?

And, if the HJ shop at that time was run the way many old hat shops were run, the salesperson would have grabbed an open crown hat in your size and creased it for you!! That was part and parcel of selling hats in the old days, and HJ probably was doing it like they used to. This was common in this country as well, if you went into a good mens store to buy a hat. There was alot of service involved in the old days. And lots of info on how this worked is in Debbie Hendersons hat book. There is much to consider and think about here. Seems like I recall an old pic of the HJ shop, showing stacks of open crowned hats sitting on shelves. Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:25 pm

Oh, I agree, agent5. Though I personally don't subscribe to this theory, I do generally like to keep an open mind about things. Personally, I've accidentally squashed hats of mine before and some have ended up with a crease, while others have not. I think it's been a matter of the quality and type of felt, though I couldn't tell you which was which at this point in time.

3Thou has been doing some incredible research, even if it does seem a bit far fetched. I still applaud him for it, though. Lord knows I'll laugh myself into a stupor if it all ends up to be true. You are right about one thing, Hollywood IS the center of illusion!

bink

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:31 pm

However, that doesn't mean that if you sit on it it IS going to make that crease.

Funny, because I cannot sit on my hats without making that crease!!! It seems to happen naturally due to the top of the hat being softer without the sweat giving it rigidity lower down on the crown. Sit on your hat and watch where the creases appear. The top naturally folds down inside the crown, and a crease is left. At least all of my hats do that, at least the ones that I sat on to replicate the telescope-like crease. Heck, don't take my word for it. Sit on it!!!

Fedora

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:46 pm

I've had my latest HJ almost a year now. It has never had stiffener in it and I can and have wadded it up in a ball and stuffed it in my pocket. I can sit on it and get the line around it where it "pork-pied". I can get the mushroom effect by folding the crown at the top of the ribbon. What I started with was an open crowned, 3 inch brim HJ Poet.

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:58 pm

I've had my latest HJ almost a year now. It has never had stiffener in it and I can and have wadded it up in a ball and stuffed it in my pocket. I can sit on it and get the line around it where it "pork-pied". I can get the mushroom effect by folding the crown at the top of the ribbon. What I started with was an open crowned, 3 inch brim HJ Poet.

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:09 pm

Yeah, all I'm saying is 3k$ has done a great job presenting his theroy or making it look plausible on the SoC hat at least. It dosen't make much sence to me why they would use a telescope crown for a fedora either if that's not normally how it's done.

I can easily see that all the lines and such could have been made in some other way as the SoC hat looks like it had the snot beat out of it. And the SoC hat is the one that most of 3k$ screen shot examples come from. It might also be possible that hat in the SoC scene was a "stunt" hat (like the gold logoed liner hat in the cliff scene in LC) and may have been different.

It doesn't seem this telescopeing crown theory holds up in any of the other movies does it or is it only for Raiders in the first place?

Wasn't it 3K$ that came up with the "turn" that turned out to be correct? Just giving him the benifit of the doubt.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:55 pm

I agree with almost all the theories and have to say it's easy for it to go any way.
I think though, rather than concentrate so much on what HJ may have done with it, you also have to consider the numerous things the costume dept. could have done with it after delivery from HJ. Does it mean they started reblocking the hats after delivery? Very doubtful, but in all honestly, you cannot discount even the dumbest sounding things in the least. Like I said, when Hollywood is involved there will always be trickery.

So, Fedora, you're saying that you get the exact same crease in the exaxt same spot, each and every single time you'd sit on a hat? I find that to be sort of implausible. But, I'm not a hat man, so I very well could be wrong. It just seems there are so many different variables for the felt to crease while being sat on or crushed that it would seem rather odd for different hats to crease in exactly the same spots, each time.

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:42 pm

agent5 wrote:So, Fedora, you're saying that you get the exact same crease in the exaxt same spot, each and every single time you'd sit on a hat? I find that to be sort of implausible. But, I'm not a hat man, so I very well could be wrong. It just seems there are so many different variables for the felt to crease while being sat on or crushed that it would seem rather odd for different hats to crease in exactly the same spots, each time.

He's just that good that he can even exactly bash a hat with his posterior.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:54 pm

So, Fedora, you're saying that you get the exact same crease in the exaxt same spot, each and every single time you'd sit on a hat? I find that to be sort of implausible. But, I'm not a hat man, so I very well could be wrong. It just seems there are so many different variables for the felt to crease while being sat on or crushed that it would seem rather odd for different hats to crease in exactly the same spots, each time.

Well, that has been my personal experience, so far, but I have never done a controlled experiment. You are correct, in that other variables enter into the equation. Like the amount of stiffener in the crown, characteristics of the felt, and even the size of the derrier!

But, generally soft felt hats are the stiffest from the top of the ribbon on down, due to the reinforcing effects of the sweat band and ribbon, and sometimes if stiffener was used in the brim, some of this may work its way up to the sweat area. That leaves the crown from the ribbon up, the area of least resistance. So, normally any creases would occur here, and I agree, it is a large area. But, with that said, my behind seems to deliver a good crease on the top of the hat, sometimes a wee bit higher, and sometimes a wee bit lower. But, I could call it a telescope crease if I wanted to, and no one would know the difference. Afterall, some telescope crowns are low, some are high. That is why I invited some to sit on their hats and see what they came up with. Or, do like the video says and wad it up, crinkle it up, sit on it, and see what comes. If I were a betting man, I would bet we would see quite a few develop the creases in question. If no one besides me and Dakota came up with the same result, I would say we two were trying to fool ya!!

Here is a chance for the folks to actively test out the theory. And perhaps, put this to rest, or open up new avenues. It is interesting either way to me. regards, Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:57 pm

Fedora wrote:But, with that said, my behind seems to deliver a good crease on the top of the hat...

Exactly which "center crease" are you referring to, Steve?

bink

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:42 pm

Ok, I will go first then.

Here is my vintage HJ, once I sat on it.

And here is the same hat, once I popped it out.

And here is another view.

Now, this is a new hat, although it is old. You can barely see the crease from one sitting toward the top of the crown, basically the same place as 3M$'s examples. It shows up on this flash pic as a lighter area. If this hat were aged, with dust and dirt, it would be even clearer. regards, Fedora

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:44 pm

But, with that said, my behind seems to deliver a good crease on the top of the hat

Steve, please don't start selling crack!

Butt crack, that is...

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:52 pm

Oh, with no intent to hijack this thread, but I am working on replicating the look of this Hj felt from my own bodies as we speak. Notice how it crushes down and get the nice mushroom distortion from just sitting on it-once. That is the characteristics of this vintage felt, and a very desirable trait if one is after the Cairo look. The future ABs starting this week will be using the same felt, but I am having them made with less stiffener, with the ability to remove even more if I want, or need to. We never stop striving here at AB.

Heck, I have to do something to compete with my buddy Marc!!! Fedora

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:02 pm

Fedora wrote: Heck, I have to do something to compete with my buddy Marc!!! Fedora

Hmm...

...not sure how it will look on the webpage, though... "Authentic American 'hat-sitting' distressing available upon request or oversight"

I can't wait to see how this comes out...

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:57 pm

I think Ford's hat went through lots of abuse and the creases in that lid are unique and really cannot be duplicated perfectly again. Thus the cool looking Raider's lid look. However I too am open to any ideas and theories on how to try and replicate the look of the hat. Plus I am still lookin' for these pork-pie creases in the movie I don't see 'em yet, just the usual bumps, creases, and bashes... maybe its time to get some of Indy's spectacles to go with my gear?