What's wrong with rabbit felt these days?

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:18 pm

I recently met with Paulo Zakia, the owner of Cury hats (Brazil). His factory is very old and has supplied most American hat factories (including Stetson) with felt for a long, long time. He gave me a bit of info about modern-day rabbit felt.

First, he did confirm that today's rabbit felt is not the same quality as it Twas decades ago. The reason? The RABBITS! Seriously! He said the rabbits aren't the same quality because the farmers take the fur too early. He said they used to get fur from much older rabbits, and the quality was very close to wild hare. But now the farmers don't wait long enough and get fur from rabbits that are too young. Think about it - it makes a lot of sense.

He also said most rabbit fur comes from Europe.

Doesn't Akubra raise their own rabbits? And doesn't Optimo? This would support his claim that the age of the rabbit has a lot to do with the final felt, as well as the difficulty of outsourcing good quality fur.

This, along with the "aging" Fedora metioned would very much explain the difference between modern rabbit felt and vintage. As far as the felting process, except for using mercury, I'll bet the felt factories are still using the same equipment they have for generations.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:30 pm

It would also explain why new hats tend to taper much more badly than in the past

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:50 pm

Doesn't Akubra raise their own rabbits? And doesn't Optimo?

I think Akubra gets theirs from Australia, and these are the wild ones, since they have an over population of the critters. This fur from down under is highly touted as some of the best, since it is wild rabbits that they use. Optimo, on the other hand uses at least one felter, from Portugal. I do not know where Portugal sources their rabbit fur, but I would not doubt that it is European farm raised rabbits. The remark on modern felt using young rabbits would make sense. They eat rabbits, so the younger the better.

I think the cost factors may influence why not many use Aussie rabbit felt anymore, but at one time, it was highly desirable, and used by felters here in the states. John Milano comes to mind, as he used to use this fur, or at least hat bodies made from this Aussie fur.

The HJ name is magical, and that is why I own them, but mine are mostly vintage.

I have always said every Indy fan needs to own at least one HJ. The hat still has charm to me, and Todd has them. Plus, while the felt may not be the best, it sure is a very accurate and soft felt for the Raiders look. And, the color is great. Fedora

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:59 pm

Fedora, what about your (ex)rabbits (and beavers) felts softness compared to the HJ rabbit?

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:02 pm

Yep, my mistake. I was remembering that Akubra made its own FELT. Here's a quote about fur sources from their website:

The largest market is for hats made from rabbit fur. Rabbit skins are obtained from many countries - England, Australia, New Zealand, many parts of continent of Europe, China and South America. English skins are preferred by some manufacturers, but Australian skins rank highly.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:44 pm

Fedora wrote:I think Akubra gets theirs from Australia, and these are the wild ones, since they have an over population of the critters. This fur from down under is highly touted as some of the best, since it is wild rabbits that they use.

That would also explain why Akubra's rabbit felt hats are as tough and taper resistant as they are.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:30 pm

Fedora, what about your (ex)rabbits (and beavers) felts softness compared to the HJ rabbit?

The new HJ that I bought from Todd, earlier this year is less stiffened than my hats, although some of my runs of beaver have been almost the same in pliability as the rabbit HJ. Now, up until HJ started using these different bodies, that Todd has, most HJs were too stiff for me. That is what struck me about Todds HJs. I have only seen 3 or 4 of these, but the felt was soft in all of them, that is, probably a .4 degree of stiffener(fedora grade stiffness). Most of the other HJs I have reblocked were stiffer, and I am guess perhaps a .8 degree.(and some higher) My vintage HJs are .4, as that was a common degree used back in the day. Marc Kitter recently found out from the feltmaker that a .2 was practically indistingishable from a non stiffened hat, and this is probably what some vintage hats were as well, like the vintage Borsalinos, and my Optimos were like this as well. Falling leaves with change the style with this sort of felt.

Thanks to Marc for the stiffener degree info. Leave it up to him to dig deep, and pick the brains of the feltmakers, as well as everyone else involved in supplying parts for hatmakeing. He is the real info guy on this stiffening, and the degrees used on various types of bodies. Fedora

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:06 pm

Hello all,

Sorry to bother you with (another) stupid question, but I guess it relates to this topic somewhat. I was speaking with my wife about my fedora options/desires, etc., and was explaining to her about the beaver and rabbit felt conundrum... Well, needless to say she wanted to know if they kill the animals for the fur and I said "Well... Ummm, Of course not! I think... People would obviously get upset... Maybe I should look into that on the forum..."

Looking forward to a response!

Thanks again!

Michael B

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:20 pm

michaelb wrote:Well, needless to say she wanted to know if they kill the animals for the fur and I said "Well... Ummm, Of course not! I think... People would obviously get upset... Maybe I should look into that on the forum..."

I'm very interested in an official answer aswell... although I fear I already know the answer

... my girlfriend asked me a similar question

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:26 pm

It appears to me the beaver are harvested for their fur alone. Rabbit meat is processed along with the fur.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:35 pm

Beaver burger or kebab anyone?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:52 pm

A shaved beaver?

Perish the thought! Fedora

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:52 pm

This is all subjective. Nobody would care if the felt was made from disgustingly ulgy river rats. But because the cute bunnies have to die for the fur, sympathy is generated.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:54 pm

Beaver tail soup is actually said to be quite delicious... I wonder WHO said so though

Ok, back on the "why do they kill the beavers"-questions...

As bespoken in other threads, the best fur is from wild animals. Be it rabit, hare or beaver. As Steve already pointed out, they have quite some rabits to take from in Australia, so I reckon that most of the fur they're using is from wild anymals.

Beavers are not only shot for their fur! In Norway there are "beaver patrols" trying to limit the numbers by... "removing" those who are too many... That is, when the entire ecological system in... say for example a forrest is about to change to the negative, due to the over population of beavers.

So I've got my conscience clear

Kidding aside. As long as they're not raised in cages (as most of the chicken legs one eats throughout a human life), it's fine with me. But of course, if you'd like to catch one of them and try to shave it's belly.... good luck!!!

Oh, and yes I would eat beaver if offered to me

Another little trivia on the topic of this thread: back... WAY back in 18th. century, the beaver skins that were worn by the natives of America, were considered gaining the best fur possible. They were from large (older) animals and had been aged naturally with the natural oils from the human skin. Also the inferior hair had rubbed off over time.

Regards,

Marc

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:57 pm

A shaved beaver? Perish the thought! Fedora

That needs some explanation for someone who's mothertongue ain't English... Ain't that what the felter is doing? - Shaving beavers?

Regards,

Marc

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:06 pm

Marc wrote:
A shaved beaver? Perish the thought! Fedora
That needs some explanation for someone who's mothertongue ain't English... Ain't that what the felter is doing? - Shaving beavers?

Regards,

Marc

Quick, someone stop me before I comment!

#

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:26 pm

Hey no one has explained anything yet really!

closed mouths eh? lol

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:43 pm

WE watch Michaelson as he trys to hide in the nearby bushes...his finger hovering just above the delete/locked topic button, just waiting to pounce...

Regards! Michaelson

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:59 pm

It's when they run around with that mohican cut that facinates me.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:04 pm

Michaelson wrote:WE watch Michaelson as he trys to hide in the nearby bushes...his finger hovering just above the delete/locked topic button, just waiting to pounce...

Regards! Michaelson

Didn't take us long to hijack this thread did it?

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:06 pm

Ignoring innuendo I plunge on... It's the down side of aquiring fur felt. The animals have to die.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:18 pm

Perhaps not, don't they comb Alpaca for their felt?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:26 pm

Just few weeks ago i wanted to post a provocative thread with pics of the lovely animals helping us to make a great gear...

beavers, rabbits, lambs, horses, goats (some pics were really lovely about these animals)...

but i didnt want to shock anyone

So we can just THANK these lovely animals for the appreciated contribute to our quest for the most accurate gear

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:10 am

Fedora wrote:A shaved beaver? Perish the thought! Fedora

mmmmust,,,resist,,,,,,distasteful,,,,comment!!

,,,,can't ,,,,hold,,,,out,,,,much--longer

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:23 am

Yes you can - all of you. Notice the scoundrels have not derailed this topic - it's due to intentional restraint. Trust me, we have been watching it from the sidelines and discussed the trainwreck that could be coming.

Some things are too obvious, and like it was pointed out, it's a family forum. That joke won't fly. Don't swing at a pitch in the dirt.

(Do what I do to blow off steam, send the off-color stuff by PM to your buddies.

There, now you said it, move along...)

J

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:55 am

Agreed. I think most of the above comments a still the appropriate side of the line. Like a "Carry On" film once you are old enough you will get the meanings. I did you get all the adult content of "Greased Lightening" the first time you heard it? "Are you Being Served" or "Captain Pugwash"?

Anyway, back on topic. We're not exactly going to be PETA's poster boys or girls but there are a few veggie friendly alternates to our gear:

Wool fedoras (Gasp the Dorfman is useful for something).
Cotton Wested.
Keep the original strap on the MK Vii.
Disney plastic whip.

Not sure about the whole gunbelt holster though, there might be a pleather alternative somewhere.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:58 am

There's some nylon whips out there...what do they kill?

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:15 am

You didn't really think I was going to say anything, did you?

have a nice day.

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:57 am

michaelb (and anyone else who wasn't aware)-

For the sake of clarification, European rabbits are an invasive species which was introduced to Australia in the 18th century and the population has exploded since then, much to the detriment of native Aussie wildlife. Australian authorities have tried a number of methods to control the population, but rabbits breed so fast it's practically impossible to get rid of them.

So when you wear your fedora say that you are displaying your strong commitment to protecting native Australian wildlife! If your girlfriend asks, all of your hats are made from Australian rabbits of course

Antone

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:40 am

LOL! I didn't think it would take long for Michaelson ("watching for scoundrels") to drop in on this! Thanks all for the info. I really have no agenda to push either way, just curious. (Besides I can always just make up something to keep my lady calm!) Isn't the hat worth it!? Thanks again and didn't mean to start anything! By the way, my mom raises Alpacas. She may have plenty of material since they have about 16 that have to be shorn every Spring. Now THAT would be a soft hat!

Michael B

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:07 am

Antone wrote:For the sake of clarification, European rabbits are an invasive species which was introduced to Australia in the 18th century and the population has exploded since then, much to the detriment of native Aussie wildlife. Australian authorities have tried a number of methods to control the population, but rabbits breed so fast it's practically impossible to get rid of them.

Antone

Thats a good point. Many "soft hearted" people tend to overlook the fact that animal populations have to be controlled. I figure that they might as well be used for something useful.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:50 am

Yeah, maybe I can start wearing my dolphin skin jacket again.

VP · Post by VP » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:03 am

I wonder when Steve starts offering a stylish B&W 100% panda fur fedora.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:13 am

Kt Templar wrote:Yeah, maybe I can start wearing my dolphin skin jacket again.

Want to join me on a whale hunt?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:15 am

Kt Templar wrote:Yeah, maybe I can start wearing my dolphin skin jacket again.

so long and thanks for all the fish Kt Templar!

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:52 am

They had all the fish, now they have to PAY! LOL

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:51 pm

Hey no one has explained anything yet really! closed mouths eh? lol

Shaving a wild beaver would be a death sentence, and a slow death. Since the prime fur is obtained in the winter months, live trapping a beaver, and then shaving it prior to turning it loose would surely kill the animal. Better to just knock the animal in the head so as to alleviate the suffering. Geez. Unlike sheep, I do not think you can just shear them.

Fedora

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:59 pm

Got my beaver hat, off of eBay is it screen accurate?

jeboat · Post by **jeboat** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:15 pm

I can easily understand the availability of rabbit fur/meat since they are so prolific, both domestic and wild. But for the life of me I just cannot see how there can be so many beavers to supply the fur for high quality felt.

Anybody know for sure where all the beaver skins come from?

jeboat

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:20 pm

I'm cryin' over here, and not because wildlife is getting whacked. This thread is priceless!

...yet very legitimately informative. Funny how that works.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:22 pm

Texas Raider wrote:You didn't really think I was going to say anything, did you?

have a nice day.

Take no offense, TR, your restraint was noted. Just wanted to make sure the figurative 'NEXT guy' doesn't take it one step further. I think we all get the joke without going over the line.

have a nice christmas.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:37 pm

Got my beaver hat, off of eBay is it screen accurate?

A bit of pouncing and you might end up with...........something.

Fedora

IndyTaz · Post by **IndyTaz** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:42 pm

Just for the record. I'm Australian...i like to shoot rabbits & I like to eat rabbits and they are in plague proportions in some states. They are vermin. Yum

TAZ

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:16 pm

IndyTaz wrote:Just for the record. I'm Australian...i like to shoot rabbits & I like to eat rabbits and they are in plague proportions in some states. They are vermin. Yum

TAZ

Taste like.... chicken!

IndyTaz · Post by **IndyTaz** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:23 pm

Yep..tastes like chicken. But the chicken here tastes like snake

TAZ

VP · Post by VP » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:25 pm

And snakes taste like rabbits.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:20 pm

And rabbits taste like.. PEOPLE! AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:23 pm

Apparently people taste like pork!

VP have you ever tasted snake? I have, and it's true they do taste like chicken!

IndyTaz · Post by **IndyTaz** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:27 pm

TAZ

VP · Post by VP » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:24 pm

I hate snakes.

What's wrong with rabbit felt these days?

What's wrong with rabbit felt these days?

Where do all the beaver come from?