DId Ford know his Raiders fedora was turned???

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:45 pm

Ok, ok, I am losing it, but let me share my madness. I took a break from the hatmaking deal a couple of days ago and decided to watch the 3 videos, or dvds, on the making of Raiders and the stunts etc. I will have to thank a customer for giving me some copies of these old films. Michaelson had already fixed me up years ago with the vhs ones, but now I have them on dvd, and it is easier to stop, and slo mo this medium. Anyways, I noticed when Ford was shooting the Raven scene, he was walking around and suddenly reached up with his right hand to curl the brim. Now, that side of the brim is not curled at all from the warping of the turn. You cannot make it curl, as he was trying to do, like the left side of the hat. The thought occured to me that he was unaware of the turn, hence his effort at curling the right side, like the left side. This just added more weight personally, to the idea that it was just a happy accident. And the fact that the other film hats were not turned just adds to the circumstantial evidence!!!

Ok, like I said, I have lost it.

Fedora

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:18 pm

Go ahead and spread the madness around, don't hog it!

I've wondered that same thing so much I don't know what to think about it.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:48 pm

So then, using your logic, Fedora, if the turn was indeed there, we can then only assume Ford HIMSELF did NOT like the turn, as he was trying, with no success, to fix the twisted brim in the outtake you mention...right?

(grins)

Yep...messing with your mind even more there, my friend!

High regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:55 pm

So then, using your logic, Fedora, if the turn was indeed there, we can then only assume Ford HIMSELF did NOT like the turn, as he was trying, with no success, to fix the twisted brim in the outtake you mention...right? (grins

Yes, that may very well be true!! I mean, the warping on that one film hat was not done to the one he wore in Hawia, to film the opening. One would think this hat would have been turned, if it was indeed a planned look. I think the main film hat may have been irritating him, somewhat when both sides did not do the curl. But heck, who knows?? Ah, yes, Ford would know, perhaps. But, it has been so many years, and he probably never made a note of it at all. Just guessing, as we are good at that!!

Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:57 pm

LOTS of practice....

Regards! Michaelson

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:13 pm

Another thing, inherent in this, is that Ford has a point of view about his hat; he had an idea of what he wanted it to look like. So, he personalized the hat and tried, without success, to bend it to his will. So, he had a certain aesthetic he was striving for, though it would run anathema to what we all prefer.

Ford looked at that hat as an extension of his own personality, not as a prop he merely plopped on his head. This is evidenced by his fiddling with it between takes, much as we all have done.

Excellent observation, Steve.

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:51 pm

I too think Ford had a look in mind for his hat, as some of the fiddling of it behind the scenes suggest. I'm sure everyone also notices in just about every behind the scenes photo shot of ROTLA that Mr. Ford still has his hat on whether in the shade or eating lunch or just hanging out. I think he liked the hat from that evidence... alot! So much of the look probably was just a happy accident. And maybe no one realized how cool the hat really looked till after the film came out and then thought about how good it really did look on Harrison Ford?

Just a couple of my immediate thoughts.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:54 pm

This is evidenced by his fiddling with it between takes, much as we all have done.

Yes, and perhaps he was constantly trying to get it to look LCish?

Heck, that would really disapoint me!! Fedora

jjunner · Post by **jjunner** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:50 am

I doubt even Ford would know... he was on Inside the actors studio today and couldn't even remember Indiana's Real name. Someone in the audience shouted "Junior!....Henry Jones Jr!!"

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:07 am

jjunner wrote:I doubt even Ford would know... he was on Inside the actors studio today and couldn't even remember Indiana's Real name. Someone in the audience shouted "Junior!....Henry Jones Jr!!"

The impression I got was that he was trying to act aloof by pretending not to know the character's real name. I'm sure he's long forgotten everything about the jacket and hat except that they were leather and felt, but I don't think he would've forgotten what Indy's name was. He was just trying to be cute.

It's cool to see Ford tweaking the hat and wearing it between scenes on all three movies. The fact that he didn't immediately take it off and throw it to a crew member after Spielberg yelled "Cut!" lets us know that he got into the role, that he liked being there. You can almost see his eyes light up when people mention Indiana Jones to him during interviews, moreso than with any other character.

Whether he was aware of a "hat turn" during the first movie or not, I'm not sure. I want to think that he was aware of it because that would mean he was interested in helping develop the look of the character. In any event, the bottom line is the guy was simply born to wear a fedora. Each movie featured quite different hats, yet they all looked right at home atop his head. We fans know that even 1/8" can make a huge difference in whether or not a hat will look good or horrible on our own personal head/face shape. Yet all three movie hats looked fine on this guy. Let's hope he gets to don a fourth hat before we all start to collect our Social Security.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:46 am

The Hawaii hat might not have been turned, for continuity's sake. In the Tarantula scene and Forrestal scene, the hat is still unturned. The brim doesn't have the warp, just a little flip down in the very front, very un-Raiders-like.

Seems like Ford would notice if it got turned during filming, maybe not though.

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:57 am

Fedora wrote:
This is evidenced by his fiddling with it between takes, much as we all have done.
Yes, and perhaps he was constantly trying to get it to look LCish? Heck, that would really disapoint me!! Fedora

Yes! Ford was angry because he just couldn't undo that tight front pinch and he couldn't get the crown to taper. "Why won't it taper!"

prairiejones · Post by **prairiejones** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:38 am

I can get my turned AB to curl on the right side, ala Raven bar and WOTS. I just have to make a conscious effort to style it as such, if that is what I desire at the time(gotta love the AB). However, it will not hold it as the left side does.

Shawnkara · Post by **Shawnkara** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:54 pm

Yeah, he probably didn't figure it out until it was too late. I can see several hats, all laid out, next to a few detatched ribbons because they don't know which one they like. Ford picks a hat, styles it and does not realize it's crooked, as he does not have the bow to gauge it. It's really easy to accidentally put a new, unformed and open crown hat on crooked if you're not mindful of where that little sweatband bow is going. And I think most of us agree that at least some of the Raiders hats had no sweatband (or liner, probably since the sweatband is key to keeping it in place) since some were obviously crushed to a smaller size by tightening the ribbon. A sweatband wrinkles horribly when you do that, and it's terribly uncomfortable.

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:18 am

Maybe the turn and accidental cool look of the hat had to do more with how it fit than how it looks? The hat may have gotten looser from the daily wear and tear of shooting the movie or needed to be more secure on Mr. Ford's noggin during the more intense action scenes and he just turned it on his head to make it fit tighter? Gradually it just turned more and more till it became what we all see. Just guessin'

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:36 am

I know this is kind of off-topic regarding the turning of the fedora, but I have always thought that this hat may be the mysterious "Locke and Company" hat that has been alluded to in other threads. This one, at least to me, has always felt a bit out of place.............

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:44 pm

Do you mean the Raven Bar hat Oklahoma? It's my own fault and nobody else's that I get confused.

Just wanna make sure I get what ya mean.

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:25 pm

SkyChief wrote:The impression I got was that he was trying to act aloof by pretending not to know the character's real name. I'm sure he's long forgotten everything about the jacket and hat except that they were leather and felt, but I don't think he would've forgotten what Indy's name was. He was just trying to be cute.

I know I'm dragging this hopelessly off-topic, but I thought I'd throw in a comment here.

As an actor, albeit an amateur one, I can tell you that you're always thinking about your present role or your next role. Once a project is finished, unless it's Shakespeare, you do a data dump and remember surprisingly little in the way of dialogue, especially if the dialogue is another actor's. (Ford never said 'Henry' in any of his lines - it was Connery's line).

A stage actor is more likely to remember lines long-term than a film actor, who makes more use of short-term memory. Michael McKean once commented that fans are always expecting him to be able to quote whole pages of dialogue from Spinal Tap, pointing out that while fans may watch it over and over again, he himself only ad-libbed the line once.

And it's very difficult - almost painful - to watch yourself act on screen.

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:21 pm

schwammy wrote:As an actor ... I can tell you that ... Once a project is finished ... you do a data dump and remember surprisingly little in the way of dialogue, especially if the dialogue is another actor's. (Ford never said 'Henry' in any of his lines - it was Connery's line).

This makes perfect sense, for most actors and most projects. Although since the whole "Don't call me 'Junior' " gag was used so prominently in the movie, I'm going to assume that Ford would've retained the knowledge that, since his character was 'Junior' to his dad's 'Henry Jones,' his name would've in turn been 'Henry Jones, Jr.' Unless of course Ford is a complete bonehead, or that he never bothered to remember the names of other characters. Heck maybe he thinks he starred in three "Indiana Smith" movies, who knows.

Schwammy what do you think about the "did he or didn't he know" question regarding the hat turn in Raiders?

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:40 am

Well, everything I've read about Harrison Ford points to a rather fastidious person. He picks his words carefully when he speaks. I read that he is involved in all phases of character development, right down to what kind of gun they carry and what kind of shoes they wear. There's the story where he spent a ton of money on this particular green suit for his relatively small role in The Conversation. I read about somebody buying a pickup truck from him and they said it was the cleanest used vehicle they'd ever seen. So it seems likely to me that he was aware of the turn in Raiders, though in the sequels he may have figured he'd already established the look and so it wasn't as big a deal.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:55 pm

Yes, the hat after he enters the temple at first seems unturned. But then as he progesses..........

The continuity lapsed apparently. Fedora

prairiejones · Post by **prairiejones** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:57 am

There are many times in the Raven Bar fight that the hat is unturned, leaving the center pinch over his left eye.

Prof. Ed · Post by **Prof. Ed** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:53 am

Could someone show me a picture of the "turn" you are speaking of?
Are you sayiing that the hat was not centered on his head, but askew?

Thanks,

Prof. Ed

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:24 pm

See this for info on "the turn" Prof. Ed.

Is that making of Raiders video on DVD also? (is that part of what's on the 4th DVD in the set?)

Floribama Steve · Post by **Floribama Steve** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:29 pm

I think this is the best picture I've ever seen of the Raiders Turn.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b31/m ... crikey.jpg

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:59 pm

Actually, he's wearing the hat unturned, resulting in the front pinch being off-center, which really just adds fuel to this idea that Ford was unaware of the hat being turned.

Prof. Ed · Post by **Prof. Ed** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:05 pm

IndyDoc wrote:See this for info on "the turn" Prof. Ed.

Is that making of Raiders video on DVD also? (is that part of what's on the 4th DVD in the set?)

Thank you. The link was quite informative and now I understand

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:02 pm

Dakota Ellison wrote:Actually, he's wearing the hat unturned, resulting in the front pinch being off-center, which really just adds fuel to this idea that Ford was unaware of the hat being turned.

Yeah, that picture looks like the hat was bashed with the Raiders Turn, but he put it on his head in the conventional manner and thus the front pinch is off center. Maybe he knew about the turn, and usually wore it that way, but in this scene he forgot to turn it when he put it on his head.

If that was the case, then Ford would have known about the turn, but just slipped up and forgot in this one scene. When we usually see the turn, he has the pinch centered on his head.

I know that when I wear my AB, I am not always sure if the pinch in front is centered or not and so I try to feel where the pinch is with my hand to make sure it is centered. My AB is turned and due to the quality of the felt, you really can't even feel that the hat is turned. It does not feel like it is sitting lopsided on your head, even though I know that it is.

Maybe the HJs of that time were also a very high quality felt and Ford had a hard time telling if the pinch was centered or not in this same way. I think that it makes sense that in this one scene, he may not have remembered to reach up and make sure that the pinch was centered.

I am beginning to believe that Ford knew about the turn and may have been the one that bashed it that way. I used to feel that the turn was a whack-o idea. Fedora convinced me to give it a try on my AB. I haven't TURNED back since. It seems to be the only way to get a Raiders fedora to look like Ford's. Pictures like this seem to corroborate that theory.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:09 pm

I know that when I wear my AB, I am not always sure if the pinch in front is centered or not and so I try to feel where the pinch is with my hand to make sure it is centered. My AB is turned and due to the quality of the felt, you really can't even feel that the hat is turned. It does not feel like it is sitting lopsided on your head, even though I know that it is.

Yeah, and me too. It is easy to put the hat on, and the pinch be off centered. In fact. I find that I must check the mirror out before leaving the house!! 9 times out of 10, I have the pinch off centered and have to correct it to get the right look and brim warp. It is very easy to put a turned hat on wrong, and like you said if the felt is soft enough, you will never know it. Fedora

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:44 pm

Check this pic out, I had my hat way "over turned". Its really easy to do with a soft hat like the AB. Its even easier to do when your in the field and adjusting your hat without a mirror to look into. Its one thing to put a hat on off center, but I don't really see how a hat can bashed off center as much as the Raiders hat without it being done on purpose.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v320/J_We ... ngHike.jpg

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:27 pm

Well, I wouldn't say WAY over turned. The pinch is just a little right of your nose.

Sense Ford's nose is a bit crooked that should be about right then?

jk

Rusty Jones · Post by **Rusty Jones** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:55 pm

Dakota Ellison wrote:Actually, he's wearing the hat unturned, resulting in the front pinch being off-center, which really just adds fuel to this idea that Ford was unaware of the hat being turned.

I agree with that, however I'm a new AB Raider's style owner, and I love it, and I KNOW its turned... but I'm so used to unturned fedoras that I accently put it on as though it werent turned anyway... between takes ford could have shifted his hat to adjust his hair or something and messed up the pinch alignment, even knowing its turned... who knows...

shadwell55 · Post by **shadwell55** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:59 am

Fedora, you saids you watched the three making-of videos. I thought there were only two: a vhs put out some time ago (which I still need to get) and the fourth DVD in the box set. Is there another? And what is the best way to get them

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:29 am

The third was one made for M-TV, and hosted by Ford.

Regards! Michaelson

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:48 am

Great avatar Michaelson!

It seems to me that softer hats could have a tendency to shift without the wearer knowing it. My Akubra when new was 'hardhat' stiff and you knew exactly how it sat on your head. Now that it is softer and worn in, I notice it less. If I were to distress it like they did on the movie hats, I would imagine it getting really soft and un-noticable on the head.

I think Ford certainly could have realized his hat shifted during filming. Did he intend or encourage it? Probably not. Why would he? He was not going for the "Raiders look", he was unknowingly making it! We tend to discuss the look in detail. Ford is an actor wearing a hat in a movie. There is little reason to think his intention was to create a "turn" on his hat that would produce a particular brim shape. Does anyone really think Ford was thinking of the shape of his brim?

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:49 am

Thanks! Thank our friend Rabittooth for this one.

Regards! Michaelson

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:02 pm

That's a awsome avitar Michaelson!

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:27 pm

You know, I've been thinking more about something in the last couple days...the boots.

I know this seems off-topic, but I've got a point here and I'll bring it back around, don't worry.

Ford wore his own boots - Aldens - for the shoot. Because they were more comfortable, supposedly. But notice we don't see brand new shiny boots when he did this. Did he let them distress his personal boots, or did he bring them in also knowing that they had a nice, old, beatup look to them?

If it's the former, then he WAS conscious of 'the look' of an adventurer. Beat up, distressed...it's not a leap to say he had an idea in mind for the hat. I know a costumer in Hollywood...actually, she specializes in 'costume continuity', believe it or not, so it's perfect for this conversation - and her big complaint is the actors changing the way some article of clothing looks because they want it to look a certain way, and her job is often to UNDO what they did so it matches the look for the scene so you DON'T see things like the hat tilted differently between every cut.

Point is, the actors ARE very conscious of their looks, and going for a certain look at times. And since we've seen outtakes of him fiddling w/ the hat, I don't think it's a leap to say he knew about turning a hat. He is of an older generation than most of us (some present company excepted), so it's not unreasonable he had first hand experience of his father's or uncle's hats - possibly even his grandfather's - and knew the looks. Remember, actors are movie fans too - and he may have loved the look of a hat in a certain movie, and now here he was finally getting to wear a fedora too!

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:47 pm

Sounds good to me Jerry. That's the most choherent thing I've heard from you in a while.

But seriously, I think you make some good points there. So should we start another thread, Were Ford's Aldens pre-distressed or Not?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:23 pm

Jerry sounds good to me.

Point is, the actors ARE very conscious of their looks, and going for a certain look at times. And since we've seen outtakes of him fiddling w/ the hat, I don't think it's a leap to say he knew about turning a hat. He is of an older generation than most of us (some present company excepted), so it's not unreasonable he had first hand experience of his father's or uncle's hats - possibly even his grandfather's - and knew the looks. Remember, actors are movie fans too - and he may have loved the look of a hat in a certain movie, and now here he was finally getting to wear a fedora too! IndyDoc

But what old movie Hat was Ford trying to copy???

Floribama Steve · Post by **Floribama Steve** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:55 pm

IndyDoc wrote:But seriously, I think you make some good points there. So should we start another thread, Were Ford's Aldens pre-distressed or Not?

They looked fairly bright when he was on Sallah's rooftop. My guess is that they didn't have to do much to the Aldens. Sand scratches stuff up pretty quick, and the desert being as dry as it is, the shoes would gain a nice coat of dust naturally.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:35 pm

IndyDoc wrote:That's the most choherent thing I've heard from you in a while.

hahaha...okay, I had that one coming. Fair cop, Doc.

(I used to work with a frustrating old guy who had this irritating habit...whenever I came up with a GREAT idea, he'd turn to someone else, and having a hard time admitting I was right, would say, "Jerry just had is FIRST good idea."

I miss that old goat.

)

I'd have to ask around on the Fedora Lounge to get the right answer to 'which movie was HIS influence'...I bet if I just asked them 'What old movie has a hat that looks like Indy's from Raiders', we'd get a hit...hmm...okay, you got me going on this, I'll go give it a shot!

As for a question THIS demographic is probably more likely to be able to answer: Anybody know if he's answered a question like 'which movie was HIS influence' on 'Inside The Actors Studio' or some other interview?

J

P.S. Not ignoring you, Floribama, honest. I'm just gonna pursue this one a little further, though, and not worry about the validity of my boot analogy.

EDIT: Okay, topic launched over on the FL...(in their 'Moving Picture' subforum, if anyone's looking: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=6286) and it's already reaping some hits...I'll come back when they've got something pretty definitive, but folks are already reaching back to some good old B&W's, and posting pics! Woohoo! Not bad considering it's a bit of a slow wknd over there...

DId Ford know his Raiders fedora was turned???

DId Ford know his Raiders fedora was turned???

three ??? making-of videos

hat