Any updates on Herbert Johnsons new Indy quest?

In-depth discussion of the Fedora of Indiana Jones and all other hats appearing in the Indiana Jones movies

Moderators: Indiana Jeff, Dalexs

Post Reply
agent5
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3911
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 8:02 pm

Any updates on Herbert Johnsons new Indy quest?

Post by agent5 »

I know there was some pretty open communication with someone here and someone over at Herbert Johnson about locating the original Raiders block in a safe, resourcing the original felt, etc.

Any new news on that? It's been a while.
User avatar
Michaelson
Knower of Things
Posts: 44538
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:55 pm
Location: Out here knowing stuff and things and wishing I were with the family at Universal Studios Orlando

Post by Michaelson »

Yes, it sort of vaporized, didn't it? :? Regards! Michaelson
User avatar
binkmeisterRick
Stealer of Wallets
Posts: 16926
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Chattering with these old bones

Post by binkmeisterRick »

You think HJ would want to let the fans know about a "comeback." It'd be sad if it was all speak and no action.

bink
Fedora
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 5:44 pm

Post by Fedora »

Well, from what I understand, (from Marc's sourcing in Europe), the current HJs are subcontracted out to some other hat factory. It would be hard to find that block in their factory!! HJ does not make their own hats anymore. Fedora
User avatar
Marc
Vendor
Posts: 1646
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:29 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Marc »

Yeah, as Steve said: the CURRENT ones.

The guy at HJ who I talked to (Paul) claimed to have found the original patterns for the original Raiders Fedora (if those existed, then why did Richard Swales give different measurements any time somebody asked him? - Just curious...). He also claimed to have found the original block....

Heck, hold on for a second, I'll try to find that e-mail...

Regards,

Marc
User avatar
binkmeisterRick
Stealer of Wallets
Posts: 16926
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Chattering with these old bones

Post by binkmeisterRick »

It almost seems that if you want a "true" Raiders HJ, your only option will be to find a vintage one.

EDIT: OOPS! Marc posted the same time I did! Thanks for the update, Marc. I'd like to know what's really going on.
Fedora
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 5:44 pm

Post by Fedora »

Thanks for the update, Marc. I'd loke to know what's really going on.
Yes, we have top men working on it Bink. :D Fedora
User avatar
Marc
Vendor
Posts: 1646
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:29 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Marc »

Ok, here is:
Dear Mr. Kitter,

Thank you for your email and my apologies for the time it has taken for a reply.
I have been on holiday and my colleagues left your email for me as I am currently taking charge of the Indy hats improvement as I was appalled with the way that HJ handled both the hats and fans in the past.

First of all let me start by saying thank you very much for your kind offer of assistance in the improvement of our hat.I have seen one of your Adventurebilt Beaver hats and agree with you it is a well constructed and nicely blocked hat which indeed looks very close to the hats used in the film, you have done a great job.

Now on to the HJ hat so far I have managed to find all of the original patterns, the two straight sided blocks used (one a 1950s high crowned cork screw heated block, the other a wooden block for the very large sizes), I have reinstated the original felt supplier and checked that we are still using the correct Petersham band which we are. The original cutting tool belongs to Mr. Swales but we have a similar one and I am in the process of contacting him to talk over the blocking and cutting of the hats to ensure we employ the original method.

The only difference there should be between the original hats and the new ones will be the HJ logo inside as the new address and badge will be used rather than the oval one shown in the photograph you sent me. All the hats will have the original white lining rather than the mix of White and Black linings currently in the St. James's store.

As with most things at HJ I am not going to be able to have the hats made overnight and would estimate that the new hats will not be available until the end of this year. I am going to do all of the cutting and blocking myself but will also train some of the new staff to do it as many of the original staff have recently been replaced.I am going to be managing the new Fleet street store so it is highly lightly that the finishing touches to the hats will all be done over at the new location rather than at St. James's.

If I can answer any questions you may have please do not hesitate to contact me. If I have any specific questions I will take up your kind offer of contacting you further.

Kind regards,


Paul
- Now to set some things straight:
I have seen one of your Adventurebilt Beaver hats and agree with you it is a well constructed and nicely blocked hat which indeed looks very close to the hats used in the film, you have done a great job.
Now THAT is fascinating, as I hadn't seen one myself at that time, but he might as well confuse me with Steve (even though I TOLD him, that I'm NOT Steve).
(one a 1950s high crowned cork screw heated block, the other a wooden block for the very large sizes)
Let the speculations begin... :lol:
I have reinstated the original felt supplier and checked that we are still using the correct Petersham band which we are.
It's actually grosgrain, but I've heard other people in England call it Petersham, so ok :roll:
The original cutting tool belongs to Mr. Swales but we have a similar one
What is he talking about here? - The scissors :? ???
The only difference there should be between the original hats and the new ones will be the HJ logo inside as the new address and badge will be used rather than the oval one shown in the photograph you sent me.
Now this really got me, 'cause it showed to me that this gent isn't really interested in any help from my side at all. I didn't sent him a picture of the oval crest! I sent a picture of the pentagon crest...

When someone who actually knows what is wrong on the current product, is offering his help and you don't even take the time to look at a single picture, how can you claim that you're about to take the fans more seriously.

It is NOT my intention to bash HJ, in fact I think it would be great to have them offering the same service Peter does. That would improve the entire Fedora breed and since neither Steve nor I am in the same marked (or we would offer rabbit felt as well), I even offered my help. So don't take this as a "one vendor bashing another". I just find it sad to see how much their word regarding "taking the fans more seriously" is worth...

Regards,

Marc
agent5
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3911
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 8:02 pm

Post by agent5 »

Perhaps he simply got your info and another fans info mixed up in his mind. It is quite possible you're not the only one in touch with him on this. Some fans like to take the silent route. I'm glad that you posted this., Marc Thanks. I look very forward to seeing the first prototype.

Fedora,
I was under the impression that the blocks they were looking for where blocks that HJ used to have and were now stored in some sort of vault or warehouse, not the blocks from which the current HJ's are made which we know are subcontracted. I doubt that even after they get their stuff together that they'll be putting out hats in the same league as yours and several other hatters.
User avatar
Michaelson
Knower of Things
Posts: 44538
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:55 pm
Location: Out here knowing stuff and things and wishing I were with the family at Universal Studios Orlando

Post by Michaelson »

It sounds to me like this gentleman is getting his facts and figures crossed, as I know of two OTHER hatters who contacted him this year regarding this same project, though another HJ individual was in charge at the time. I'm thinking he's got all his facts and photos mixed up, thinking YOU, Marc, were the sole point of contact on all the supplied info. It could explain the odd response.

Regards! Michaelson
User avatar
binkmeisterRick
Stealer of Wallets
Posts: 16926
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Chattering with these old bones

Post by binkmeisterRick »

agent5 wrote: I doubt that even after they get their stuff together that they'll be putting out hats in the same league as yours and several other hatters.
You surprise me, agent5! :lol:

Regards,

bink
Serial Hero
Dig Leader
Dig Leader
Posts: 553
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:27 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Post by Serial Hero »

Quote:
The original cutting tool belongs to Mr. Swales but we have a similar one


What is he talking about here? - The scissors ???
You mean you don't know about the cutting tool? :wink:
Fedora
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 5:44 pm

Post by Fedora »

Fedora,
I was under the impression that the blocks they were looking for where blocks that HJ used to have and were now stored in some sort of vault or warehouse, not the blocks from which the current HJ's are made which we know are subcontracted. I doubt that even after they get their stuff together that they'll be putting out hats in the same league as yours and several other hatters
Yes, that is what I thought as well, regarding the search for the blocks. But then he makes the statement about the crown stretcher!! I tried to make sense of it all, but came up short!! :lol: I am not gonna complicate matters by saying perhaps they blocked the hats on a wood block, and then used the crown stretcher to balloon the top of the crown out!! :shock: :lol: Really that idea would be so nonsensical, at least to me, and Occams law comes into play as well. That one pic at 8 o'clock, taken from the HJ catalog shows the Raiders block in its glory. So...........
With all of this said, if HJ found the original block, I would buy one right away and put it up. The current felt that HJ is using is very close to the original felt as far as softness, it just needs to be a better quality for long term use. The texture of the modern felt is different too, going by the nice clear pics one can get from the dvds. Owning an HJ that used the original block shape is the holy grail for me. But, it would have to come from the factory, already in that shape, for me to buy one. I mean, one can replicate that shape with the right block, but it ain't the original block, and that holds tremendous importance for me personally. But, I am weird. Fedora
User avatar
The Aviator
Dig Leader
Dig Leader
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:32 am
Location: England

Post by The Aviator »

Hello all, haven't posted in a while. I was the fella talking to paul from HJ a while back and I made the post about the changes in HJ. Your right agent 5 I do like to take the silent route :roll:

I put Todd Coyle (puppetboy) in touch with him as he was interested in supplying the 'new and improved' HJ.But and here it is.... :roll: All is not as it seems :shock:(The plot thickens)

It turns out that they won't incorporate the improvements into the wholesale hats. They will only be available custom order, for a premium price. I dont have a clue at what price... im just repeating what todd told me. The "Indiana Jones" fedora will only be available custom order! However, the will more than likely still sell the"Poet".

The last time i was in touch with Paul (HJ) However was at the start of october.....don't reall like to badger people to much. Give the man some room. Th only reason i didnt shout this from the roof tops is i dont want this fella to be inondated with e-mails...Ill have to look into getting some pics...hopefully :lol:
User avatar
J_Weaver
Expeditionary Hero
Expeditionary Hero
Posts: 2149
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:18 pm
Location: Ramparts of Civilization

Post by J_Weaver »

Custom order! I'd say it'll have a custom price to go along with it! :shock:
User avatar
Pitfall Harry
Expeditionary Hero
Expeditionary Hero
Posts: 2114
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:43 pm

Post by Pitfall Harry »

Someone contact Harrison Ford and ask him if he'll buy all of us the custom Indy hats. HA! :)





Pitfall
User avatar
binkmeisterRick
Stealer of Wallets
Posts: 16926
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Chattering with these old bones

Post by binkmeisterRick »

Well, iif it's going to be a custom order only, then you may as well just get the AdventureBilt. Besides, it'll come with the exact same ribbon HJ uses soon enough PLUS you get a better quality felt AND for cheaper! I thinbk HJ needs to be careful they don't shoot themselves in the foot with this one. :?

bink
User avatar
J_Weaver
Expeditionary Hero
Expeditionary Hero
Posts: 2149
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:18 pm
Location: Ramparts of Civilization

Post by J_Weaver »

binkmeisterRick wrote:I thinbk HJ needs to be careful they don't shoot themselves in the foot with this one. :?

bink
Honestly, I think HJ shot themselves in the foot long ago. Not just in the Indy market, but in the hat market in general. There are better offerings at better prices out there. But as Fedora says, there is something magical about the HJ name. It would be nice to see them work things out.
agent5
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3911
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 8:02 pm

Post by agent5 »

Well, iif it's going to be a custom order only, then you may as well just get the AdventureBilt.
I actually knew this comment would be coming very, very soon and why does it not surprise me to hear it from you first. :roll: :lol: :lol:
Honestly, I think HJ shot themselves in the foot long ago. Not just in the Indy market, but in the hat market in general. There are better offerings at better prices out there. But as Fedora says, there is something magical about the HJ name. It would be nice to see them work things out.
True and true. Nothing will ever change the fact that they were the original company who produced the hats for the films. I think that fact was always really the selling point of their hats cuz' as long as I've seen them they've never been top shelf.
The only reason I don't have an AB is cuz I have an Optimo and I have no need for another hat, nomatter how purrty and less expensive it is. But, I do NOT have a hat made by the original hatter that made the hats for the films and that is my goal. It's the only piece of my gear left that can me traced back to the original costumers that I do not have. So, my goal with HJ is not even to get a hat comperable to the Optimo's or even the AB's, which we know they just cannot do, but to get a hat as close to the original as possible which they said they're working on.
The reason I never got an HJ before, even if they are the original company, was because the hats were just so bad.
So, bottom line here is that if all of this goes through with HJ the 'custom price' will be fine by me. I have no reason to even attempt to comare it to any of the other offerings simply because not one of the other offerings can say they had anything to do with the original hats.

I guess it all comes down to what your core priorities within Indygear really are and the thrust for your hobby.
User avatar
Michaelson
Knower of Things
Posts: 44538
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:55 pm
Location: Out here knowing stuff and things and wishing I were with the family at Universal Studios Orlando

Post by Michaelson »

In your case, though, agent5, I'd suggest you continue your HJ quest with attempting to find one from that specific era...when Raiders was made. Anything else created will be just a hat with the HJ name attached, and in my opinion, that just isn't what you're after, considering all the top notch items you've collected over the years and shared with us through your amazing photos.
The original people, and the original shop isn't there anymore, so you'll be accepting a substitute HJ, plain and simple. To a purist like yourself, I guarantee you'll be happy to have the fedora, but not totally pleased.

Regards! Michaelson
User avatar
binkmeisterRick
Stealer of Wallets
Posts: 16926
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Chattering with these old bones

Post by binkmeisterRick »

agent5 wrote:
Well, iif it's going to be a custom order only, then you may as well just get the AdventureBilt.
I actually knew this comment would be coming very, very soon and why does it not surprise me to hear it from you first. :roll: :lol: :lol:
Like a shark attracted to the smell of blood. You know I put that bait out for you. :lol: :wink:

I know what you're saying. The one thing HJ will never be able to mess up is their clam to have provided the original hat. Regardless of whether they sell their "custom Indy" for 10 bucks or a thousand, there will certainly be those fans who will buy the hat. I really would like to see HJ come out on top with this, but I guess I'd also be disappointed if they priced it too far out of the reach of the average fan. Case in point, I like your Optimo hat, but it crosses the line on what I'm willing to pay for a hat at this point. I do give HJ credit for trying to authentically resurrect the hat, though.
agent5
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3911
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 8:02 pm

Post by agent5 »

I really would like to see HJ come out on top with this, but I guess I'd also be disappointed if they priced it too far out of the reach of the average fan.
As would I. Perhaps they'll continue doing the standard Poet and a then add the new, Deluxe version, just like the Fed. Who knows? Maybe.
User avatar
binkmeisterRick
Stealer of Wallets
Posts: 16926
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Chattering with these old bones

Post by binkmeisterRick »

Heck, if they'd keep the standard Poet in the same block and used the proper ribbon AND made it considerably cheaper than the "custom," then all you'd have to do is order it open crowned (if you can) and bash it yourself. You'd probably be better off, really! I agree with Michaelson, though, if you really want THE hat, you're best off trying to score a Poet from that era.

bink
Fedora
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 5:44 pm

Post by Fedora »

Well, if HJ found the original block, and if they used the same sweat, and liner, I would want one, just to put up as a keepsake. But, like Michaelson said, the one that I am really after is an HJ with this correct block, that was made from the same stock as when the film was made. Now, that hat is the Grail to me. With HJ perhaps offering a deluxe Indy fedora, makes me think they are tooling up for some film hats!!! What a great way to open a new market that will look like a scene from inside Wall Street, once the new film comes out. You want "the hat'? Well, we have it, and it is called the Deluxe, and we would be happy to make you one for 750.00 bucks!! Do not be surprised if this does not come to pass. Fedora
User avatar
binkmeisterRick
Stealer of Wallets
Posts: 16926
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Chattering with these old bones

Post by binkmeisterRick »

That's an interesting point, Steve. Maybe HJ gearing up for these hats is a sign that Indy IV may actually get released after all! Good thing it's already made. I hear the working title is "Treasure of the Templars." :wink:
Fedora
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 5:44 pm

Post by Fedora »

That's an interesting point, Steve. Maybe HJ gearing up for these hats is a sign that Indy IV may actually get released after all!
Yes, I cannot help but think HJ, under their new owners is about to capitalize-finally on being the hatter with the right name. I think they may be positioning themselves, to be in the right place, at the right time this go around. Remember how Stetson could not keep up with the orders? This may be a good thing for the Raiders fans. I gotta feelin' this new custom hat will be used in the next film. And, if you want one just like it, well................ :shock: Fedora
User avatar
J_Weaver
Expeditionary Hero
Expeditionary Hero
Posts: 2149
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:18 pm
Location: Ramparts of Civilization

Post by J_Weaver »

You may be on to something Fedora. It would indeed be a smart business move. However, I have a gut feeling that if all of this goes through the price may be well above what most of us gearheads could afford. :( But never fear, AB is here! :wink: :lol:
User avatar
Michaelson
Knower of Things
Posts: 44538
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:55 pm
Location: Out here knowing stuff and things and wishing I were with the family at Universal Studios Orlando

Post by Michaelson »

I remember saying that when HJ's were only $200. :roll: :wink:

If they do it right, they'll have buyers, if only for the provenance of the item.

Regards! Michaelson
User avatar
The Aviator
Dig Leader
Dig Leader
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:32 am
Location: England

Post by The Aviator »

Just an update the new hj poet will be at £165 the same price as the old one! :oops: sorry for leading anyone astray I just got an email from the fella in hj.he confirmind the price will stay the same..hopefully I should have pics by the end of the week :D
agent5
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3911
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 8:02 pm

Post by agent5 »

Thanks for the update. Good news indeed. I just hope and pray they do a bang up job. Then I can close out my Indygear and move on.
User avatar
Erri
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 4601
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:02 pm

Post by Erri »

If I can add my humble information that i wrote in another thread aswell, I sent an email to HJ asking if they still have this hat model (the one pointed by red arrow)

Image

But the polite man answering my email told me:
Sorry to say that model is no longer available.
so i asked if the block was still used maybe for another model but
Thank you for your email.
Sorry to say we do a similar block but not the same.
If that HJ was the original raiders block, like Fedora supposed, it's not available anymore. I don't know if anyone of you knows a person at HJ who might recover the old blocks (if they have not been destroyed) but the quest sounds very hard! ... and we're only about 25 years after the film was made!!!
User avatar
Marc
Vendor
Posts: 1646
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:29 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Marc »

Thanks for sharing that info Erri.

I know it's been said many times before from Steve and I can only agree to it: THAT hat there at 8 o' clock was blocked on the very same block as the Raiders Fedora. I do not have the slightest doubt about it. And if that block is lost, then they will not be able to replicate the Raiders Fedora unless they'll have that specific block re-made. And THAT takes 10 months+ even for two fanatics :wink: Trust me :wink: :lol:

Regards,

Marc
Fedora
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 5:44 pm

Post by Fedora »

so i asked if the block was still used maybe for another model but

Quote:
Thank you for your email.
Sorry to say we do a similar block but not the same.

Ah, thanks Errico! I thought so, but am glad you got it from the horses mouth about the block not being available. When you look at block shapes as long as me and Marc, you can notice the nuances. Most of those hats on the catalog page share the same block shape, i.e. the current block shape and the LC block. But that one is different. A squarer block shape, if you will, with less taper. And of course, that is the block of the Raiders fedora. Here's a bit of spin to add. Even with that block shape, if you use a stiff felt, the final look will not look like the film hat! I know this sounds strange, but trust me on this one. :lol: A stiff felt will not react the same to the block shape, and once you crease it, normally it will taper when you put in the top crease, as viewed from the front of the hat. The felt has to be soft enough to "give" and hence not pull the sides inward. Stiff felt has a tendency to pull in at the top when the top crease is put in. A teardrop or C dent works fine on this stiff felt though. This tendency of the stiffer felt confused the issue when Marc and I were working on the correct block shape. Only when you match the correct felt to the correct block do you get the magical, and elusive Raiders hat. So there is more to it than just the correct block. At once time, I thought that perhaps the only difference in the Raiders versus the LC, was that the felt on the LC was stiffer, like some of the later HJs that I have reblocked. Being stiffer, the felt would not respond to the block like the Raiders felt. As time and experimentation proceeded, we discovered that the Raiders hat was just a totally different block-period. There is more to this block shape versus felt stiffness than meets the eye. :wink: I think Marc has lost sleep over it!!! :lol: If you could have read, or listened to our emails and phone conversations when we were experimenting, you would have come away with the idea that those two guys are nuts!!! But, I am convinced only nutty folks like us could have come up with the perfect block. The thing is, 99 per cent of all hat blocks are not straight sided blocks with the right radius on top. Stove pipe blocks were used on top hats, but were not common for fedoras. :lol: Therein lies the problem on most Indy fedora clones. Traditional fedora block shapes were used, and they were all wrong. When I got that vintage HJ recently, and popped out the crown, I was amazed!! Here it was, the Raiders block. I pulled out the ruler and went to measuring. We incorporated a nuance that I discovered, on Marcs blocks that are in the works from his English blockmaker. We had the nuance already, but we changed the point of transition of that nuance. Lowered it a bit, and voila'. Fedora
Antone
Laboratory Technician
Laboratory Technician
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:48 pm
Location: Northern California

Post by Antone »

Serial Hero wrote:
Quote:
The original cutting tool belongs to Mr. Swales but we have a similar one


What is he talking about here? - The scissors ???
You mean you don't know about the cutting tool? :wink:
He is clearly referring to the scimitar that Mr. Swales used to carry around the shop, for cutting the ribbons and trimming brims. Mr. Swales kept the original, naturally, but lately they have been using a WWI cavalry sabre which works almost as well.

Fedora-

Have any pics of the vintage HJ? I'd be curious to see another hat from the Raiders block!

Antone
Post Reply