Guess what I found out?

thunderquack · Post by **thunderquack** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:37 pm

Went to the pistol range and made a very important discovery. Turns out that I really **** with a pistol. Do you think that Indy would carry around an M1 Garand instead? lol I know, I know, Practice makes perfect.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:07 am

Being a good shot with a handgun takes a lot of pratice. Beside, its a good excuse to spend time at the range.

thunderquack · Post by **thunderquack** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:09 pm

I know , I know , LOTS of practice makes perfect. You would think that I'd be better after all that time in the Corps. But then again I didnt carry a pistolall of the time.

Calico Jack · Post by **Calico Jack** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:35 pm

The first couple of times I fired a pistol I was shocked at how bad I was at it. It's one of those things that you just assume is primarily mental - aim and fire.

I can hit a target reasonably well now (3 out of 4 times, usually) at a medium distance with a revolver, but anything else and it's just dumb luck. The more streamlined the gun is, the less likely I am to hit anything with it.

Not too bad with a rifle, though - guess all that red rydering as a kid payed off.

thunderquack · Post by **thunderquack** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:24 pm

Yeah, I agree about the rifle. Put a rifle in my hands and point to the target and I'll hit it. Now I'll have to get out to the range more like J Weaver said.

webley420 · Post by **webley420** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:07 am

For me Im the complete opposite I can hit a target with a revolver but I **** with a rifle.

IndianaRedmon · Post by **IndianaRedmon** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:11 pm

Practice is what is needed for most of us to become good pistol shots, me included. However, after the first couple hundred rounds. I really started enjoying the accuracy I've been able to achieve at the pistol range. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE thats what its all about.

I have to admit the M1 Garand is an excellent rifle I seen one take the 200 meter competition at my club in October. They are nice.

thunderquack · Post by **thunderquack** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:36 pm

The M1 is a lot better than the toy I carried in the Corps.

Indiana_Zach · Post by **Indiana_Zach** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:32 am

If i had a choise between the pistol and the M1 I would choose the M1.

Masterfulks · Post by **Masterfulks** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:01 am

I have no problems picking up a rifle and shooting well with it.

Pistols are a different issue.

I have my great grandfathers triple lock smith and wesson and it feels good in the hand, but the trigger pull is at such a weird angle. I havent shot it in years, but the last time I did it wasnt good.

The fixed sights on most old school revolvers dont sit well with me either.

I can draw and aim my glock 26 or beretta 92 with no problem. Those 3 dot sights make it easy to get on target.

VP · Post by VP » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:50 am

M1 *****. The best rifle out there is the Finnish 7,62 Rk 95. http://www.mil.fi./maavoimat/kalustoesittely/00042.dsp

LeatherneckJones · Post by **LeatherneckJones** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:23 am

Whoa, whoa, whoa... the RK95 IS good, but I don't know if it is SOOO good that it makes the Garand sucky... (I trained with the Finns in '97... good bunch, the Finns!)...

Just gimme a good ol' M40A3 any day... head shots at 700 yards are no problem

...

And contrary to popular belief, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the tried and true M16A4... I'm here, aren't I?

But, back to Indy... I could see him with a Tommy gun (military version, not Chicago gangster version)... he had an MP40 for a minute, didn't he?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:42 am

Anyone should shoot a rifle more accurately than a handgun simply because the rifle is inherently more accurate due to the greater distance between the sights and the longer length of the barrel.

I really don't mean to brag, because I find shooting accurately to be a rather simple thing. I always qualify Master (score between 99-100) at the pistol range every year, at work. And I only shoot once a year to qualify and never practice. I really do not consider myself to be a "gun nut". It is just simply a tool of my trade. I get as excited about a gun as a plumber would a pipe wrench.

Shooting a handgun accurately is simply hand, eye coordination. You just have to keep your wrist locked and learn to move your trigger finger without moving the rest of your hand. Once you understand how to use the sights and the sight picture that you should have, as long as you have the discipline to not anticipate the shot and not to jerk your hand, hitting the target is a piece of cake.

At least it seems to work for me. Maybe the reason that it doesn't excite me more is because it came so easy for me. Maybe I lose interest because it doesn't present that big of a challenge for me. It does make me feel better to know that I am very capable of defending myself in lethal situation.

When I say that I only shoot once a year to qualify, it may be somewhat misleading. When we qualify, it is a very thorough exercise.

Not only do we qualify at the firing range with real ammo, but we also have a computer operated shoot-don't shoot system that uses a modified Baretta with lasers that the computer can detect and then the computer can replay the scenario. It can replay in real time or slow motion or stop at anytime. It shows the exact location where each round hits on the screen. All of the scenarios were filmed in the area where we work. The computer is interactive as it uses seemless branching and the computer operator can make it respond differently based on your actions. The same scenario can end any number of ways, depending on your performance in handling the situation.

We also have role playing scenarios, where both the good guys and the bad guys are armed with modified Barettas that fire a chalk bullet at 900 feet per second. We have on long sleeve shirts and pants and body armor and a helmet with a face shield, but it still stings a bit if you get hit. And the big red splatter on your clothes is a pretty good indicator as to where you got hit. I guess it is like paintball taken to a totally different level.

We fire live ammo at paper targets that turn when your time is up. We usually have to draw and fire two or three rounds at a time in two seconds, before the target turns again. We use a computer for decision making scenarios. And, we shoot at live action targets with live ammo, even though it is made out of chalk. I don't know that our training could get more realistic unless we can find some volunteers that wouldn't mind getting shot at with real ammo. Bink...hey, bink....where'd you go, bink...

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:14 pm

I'm over here, practicing how to be really, really small.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:16 pm

Oh YEAH??!! Hey, Buff, hand me the sawed off shotgun, would you please?

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:31 pm

I told you Bink, you have to turn FASTER...

...er, scattergun? You're on your own, Bink, but I'll go get the bandages...

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:51 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Shooting a handgun accurately is simply hand, eye coordination. You just have to keep your wrist locked and learn to move your trigger finger without moving the rest of your hand. Once you understand how to use the sights and the sight picture that you should have, as long as you have the discipline to not anticipate the shot and not to jerk your hand, hitting the target is a piece of cake.

And that my friends is the key. However, it sounds easier than it is. Like Bufflehead said, once you get that down it doesn't require a huge amount of pratice to maintain your skill. Although pratice helps, and its a lot of fun!(at least for me

)

P.S. I don't consider myself a gun nut either. However, I am a gun enthusiast.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:35 pm

J. Weaver,

From reading your posts on this forum, I know that you know a whole lot more than I do about guns. I can hit something with them, I just don't know a dang thing about 'em. If I can figure out which end to put the bullets in, then I'm okay.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:43 pm

...and another thing. I don't want anyone to think that I am not advocating practice. In anything, practice makes perfect. I am just naturally a pretty good shot. If I were to practice, I could probably do well in competition. I just don't have the interest in it to put in the amount of time and effort that it takes to compete at a high level.

Umm...and yet, it seems that some of the things that I am really interested in, I work at them very hard and I will just never be that good at them. Go figure.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:44 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote:J. Weaver,

From reading your posts on this forum, I know that you know a whole lot more than I do about guns. I can hit something with them, I just don't know a dang thing about 'em. If I can figure our which end to put the bullets in, then I'm okay.

Coming from a law enforcement officer I'll take that as a high complement.

I must give credit for my knowledge to my grandad. He served in the Marines during Korea and retired fom the WV State Police. Taught me pretty much all I know about guns. Heck, at 75 he is still tough for me to best with a handgun. However, my younger eyes have him beat when it come to a rifle.

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:59 pm

Accuracy with a rifle over a pistol never occured to me. I'm quite good with various rifles, even calling trick shots like one does playing pool, but I just realized, I haven't shot a pistol since I was in Wolf Cubs (and I could barely hit the target when I was 11)!! I oughta remedy that by getting to a range, I think.

Though all the practice in the world might not make me as good a shot with a heater as an American might be though.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:00 pm

Here ya' go, Michealson!

GraveRobberGreg · Post by **GraveRobberGreg** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:11 am

Bufflehead we shot pretty much the same every year. I too only shot once a year during In Service training. Maybe we should consider taking them to the QM next year since we are going to me the "Muslce" of the summit

Even drunk I know we can hit our targets

Just like being back at work. I really miss that

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:59 am

Bufflehead Jones wrote:J. Weaver,

From reading your posts on this forum, I know that you know a whole lot more than I do about guns. I can hit something with them, I just don't know a dang thing about 'em. If I can figure out which end to put the bullets in, then I'm okay.

Buff,

Don't forget to figure out which end those bullets come OUT of too...especially if I'm standing anywhere near ya

In all honesty, Buff has completley summed up what it is to be a good shot--understand the mechanics of YOU--your hand, your body, and most importantly, your mind (for some of us, that last part wlil be about as easy as ending the color-of-the-sock debate!

). Here's how I prioritize gun knowledge: Know how to use it safely, then know how YOU work and have to work to shoot it, and then finally learn about how the gun itself works. Granted, there is definatley some overlap of the subjects, but thats how I see it.

Anticipating the shot in the right way is good, but more often then not, people do it in the wrong way and end up scared of the big bang and the recoil, thus causing them to flinch, thus sending that bullet a few inches from the target.

That few inches is pretty important. I used to shoot competitively in my home town with my Dad, and I did quite well--the difference between a victory and a loss, though, is often only a couple of inches (or, potentially in Buff's line of work, though we pray it'll never happen, the difference between life and death could be only a couple of inches)

Speaking of which end the bullets go in/come out--Some newer weapons (like the FN-P90) have some of the strangest (yet effective/practical/efficient) bullet feed systems ever. The bullets are loaded into the mag perpendicular to the barrell, they are turned and chambered using the blowback, and then the spent casings come out the bottom of the gun behind the grip. First time I saw a video of that thing it took me quite a few minutes to figure out what the heck was going on!

Cheers
Craig

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:38 pm

I think you're spending too much time out of the country, Farnham.

Prof. Ed · Post by **Prof. Ed** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:59 am

During the summer I went pistol shooting at a farm with my son. His friend has all kinds of revolvers and automatics. Our target was a bowling pin about 25 yards away.
I shot a bunch of different 9mm's and missed, a 44 magnum and missed, and them came a Kimber 45 and I hit all but once through the entire clip.
I haven't been target shooting since 1971, so I didn't expect much. Oh that Kimber 45 was just a dream.
Naturally, I went back and tried the other pistols thinking that I found my "eye" for the target. I was a little better. I tried the Kimber again and hit almost every time.
Try shooting one of these if you can find someone at the range that has one.
It will be a great boost to your ego.

Best,

Prof. Ed

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:17 am

Sometimes a particular gun just seems to 'come to hand', doesn't it? I've owned several Ruger Police Positives in the past, in .357. Some of them I couldn't hit the side of a barn with...but one I had I could drive tacks with, and they were all fixed iron sight guns. On rare occasion, one just 'fits'.

Like an idiot, I traded that one PP off, and have regretted it ever since.

Regards!

Michaelson

Prof. Ed · Post by **Prof. Ed** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:26 am

Agreed. I wanted that pistol. Kimber's are high dollar items

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:32 am

Thats true. Sometimes a gun just fits. I have a Weatherby 12ga over-under that I shoot skeet with. I can throw it up and hit a target almost as if it were a reflex. It just suits me.

Ed, do you think the fact that Kimber makes some of the best auto's has anything to do with it?

P.S. I'd give a big toe to have a Kimber Custom TLE with night sights. Indy can have is Browning HP. I'd want the aforementioned Kimber with me in the Raven Bar.

Prof. Ed · Post by **Prof. Ed** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:46 am

[Ed, do you think the fact that Kimber makes some of the best auto's has anything to do with it?

Of course not

I'll tell you, shooting that Kimber was the first time I felt "macho" in many years.
Gosh that sounds sad.

Prof. Ed

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:24 am

One of my problems is aiming. I usually see two targets or two sights depending on how I focus. I had to create this image to illustrate my point. I'm working on "tuning" out one of the images, but the brain is a slow learner.

Prof. Ed · Post by **Prof. Ed** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:46 am

The above seems to be a problem with our physiology. If you hold up your index finger in front of your monitor and focus on it, you;ll see two monitors. You look at the monitor and see two fingers.
This seems to occur when the finger is close to the eye. At arms length , it appears to go away.
Sometimes, I suppose ,the longer your arm, the better the view? Or maybe that is why you see people doing kind of an instinctial type of aim. They point and shoot.
I just don't know. I keep moving my focus between the sights and the target and wish for the best

Super graphics by the way.

Best regards,

Prof Dead Eye ( at my age most things on me are dead)

Masterfulks · Post by **Masterfulks** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:44 am

You could always close one of your eyes.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:22 am

Pyro,

Do you know which one is your dominant eye? Pick an object in the distance and hold your thumb up and sight it as you would a gun using your thumb as the sight and using both eyes. Now, close your left eye without moving your thumb. Is your thumb still on the target?

Without moving your thumb, open your left eye and close your right eye. Are you still on target? When you sight with your dominant eye, the thumb will stay in the same spot as when you sight with both eyes. When you sight with your non-dominant eye, the thumb will move off target without you moving your hand.

Once you know which one is your dominant eye, you need to use this eye as the guide to lining up your sights. My right eye is my dominant eye, which works out well since I am right handed.

Your sight picture should be as follows. Your eyes should look through the rear sight and be focused on the front sight. With a proper sight picture, your rear sight should look a little blurry. The front sight should be in very sharp focus. The target should be blurry off in the distance. Even though the target is blurry, you can still see it and be able to aim at the very center of it.

This all applies to aimed fire. Instinctive shooting without aiming is a whole new ballgame.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:28 am

I forgot to add, that you need to have the front sight the same height as the rear sight and have the exact same amount of space on both sides of the front sight making the front sight perfectly centered between the two parts of the rear sight.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:44 am

You hit the nail on the head Buff.

I'm a unique shooter. My left eye is my domimant eye however I shoot right handed. (we have the same problem Pyro) I discoved this when I began shooting skeet at an actualy range. The "old pros" told be to shoot with both eyes open. I told them when I did I saw two guns. After a few months and a few thousand rounds I developed my own system. After I shot my first perfect round they stopped giving me advice.

When shooting a handgun I sight with my left eye, but I still shoot right handed. I won't even try to explain how I worked this out, but its also the results of a lot of time and ammo.

The moral of the story is that it takes a lot of time and pratice, but you'll eventually find out exactly what works and doesn't work for you.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:38 pm

Really, Pyro, try the thumb trick. I don't know ANYBODY it hasn't worked for, but it's possible there are folks who don't HAVE a dominant eye. In which case closing one eye is really not such a bad suggestion, at least until you get in the habit of focusing your aiming w/ the image from one eye only.

J

Havana · Post by **Havana** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:28 am

Hi, Shooting a pistol is one of the very few things that I am actually good at. Let me make a few brief suggestions that might help you. First, always start out with a revolver. Automatics are for more advanced shooters. I recommend you cock the revolver manually before firing. This will give you a much lighter trigger pull and helps keep the gun from moving off target. Work on your gun holding technique. Aiming really comes from the whole body. Never shoot from a bench or other false rest. Cradle the gun using both hands. Stand with your arms slightly bent and semi-relaxed. Crouch just enough to put a bend in your knees. I learned this from a British SAS manual. These slight bends make you much more steady. Sqeeze the trigger, never pull. Try to remove any anticipation from your mind. Some people anticipate the noise or the recoil and they upset the shot by moving ever so slightly as the trigger is squeezed. Feeling totally comfortable with what you're doing is essential to good shooting. I recommend finding some up to date shooting manuals or articles. You really can learn a great deal from print. Try different techniques. I would stick with 22's in the beginning. You'll just have to find what works best for you but don't give up. Good eyesight is a tremendous advantage. Practice breath control too. You should be totally calm when you fire that weapon. Most importantly, don't try to copy anything you've ever seen in a movie.

Masterfulks · Post by **Masterfulks** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:33 am

Here's a couple of my tips.

Be sure to be at the end of a "breath" when you actually squeeze the trigger. This is especially true to shooting a rifle.

If you're shooting fast, then that doesnt matter as much.

One way to test yourself is to take a revolver and load 4 of the 6 rounds. Then without looking, spin the cylinder and lock it into place.

That way when the hammer falls on that empty chamber you'll know if you're finally not flinching.

You would be better off leaving spent casings in their so you're not dry firing.

I did this to my fiance as she was preparing for police academy. On her first day to ever shoot a pistol I gave her my .44 Ruger Vaquero to test out.

I left about the 3rd chamber empty. I was expecting the massive blast from the first two to scare her, but it didnt! When the hammer fell on that empty chamber she didnt flinch at all.

I was amazed and told her she would do fine. The kick of a 9mm was nothing after that.

She placed in the top few in her academy class for accuracy, and won the overall cadet award from the Director.

(Ok sorry I just had to brag about her)

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:46 am

You want to brag on the wife...ok, let ME tell a quick one about MINE then...a good friend and I were out target shooting behind my inlaws years ago, sighting in his new Ruger Redhawk 44 mag. We had tightened up the group to about 2 inches, when my wife walked out carrying some scraps from the house for the neighbors chickens. My friend said, 'Hey, you want to shoot my revolver?'

My wife said,' No, I don't like.44's"

My friend continued to taunt her, until, exasperated, she put down the bowl, put on the hearing protection, and said, 'Hand me that thing.....what are you shooting at?"

He loaded up the Redhawk, then pointed at the target we had been shooting at, about 30 feet from where we were standing.

She squeezed off the first shot in single action, two handed hold, putting the first round at about the 5 o'clock position just outside the center ring. She then began to methodically shoot the next 4 rounds dead center double action.....finally taking the gun in her right hand, aimed low, and shot the post in half holding the target in place, essentially destroying every thing down range with the splinters from the post, turning the now tattered paper target into confetti.

She then handed the .44 back to my friend, standing bug eyed and mouth hanging open, and said with distain..' I TOLD you I didn't like a .44. I prefer a .357!", picked up the bowl, and walked back to the house.

My friend stood there for a minute, then in COMPLETE disgust, packed up all his gear...loaded up his jeep, and left without saying another word. I don't believe he's EVER shot that .44 again. He's strange that way (I tried to warn him all those 'Glenn' women were raised with guns in their hands!!)

Regards! Michaelson

Masterfulks · Post by **Masterfulks** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:49 am

Women can surprise you in shooting sports. I've often heard they tend to shoot better because guys grow up playing around with guns and develop bad habits.

Women will surprise you in fencing too. A foil, epee, or saber can smack you just as fast in a womans hands.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:13 am

Heeheehee...Michaelson, your wife is a hoot!

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:21 am

Oh, since someone mentioned revolvers versus semi autos, with a semiauto, don't put your non-gun hand on top of your gun hand or the slide will take out a big chunk of your hand.

OUCH!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:52 am

...or your thumb nail....er...did I do that? 8-[

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:55 am

Indiana Jerry wrote:Heeheehee...Michaelson, your wife is a hoot!

This happened YEARS before the movie 'Quigley Down Under' came out.

Remember the line Quigley said.... "I said I didn't like handguns....I never said I didn't know how to USE one."

I thought of this incident when I saw that movie.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:21 pm

Michaelson, I don't think he'll ever be able to live that one down. He probably didn't have any other options but to walk away!

Luisiana Jones · Post by **Luisiana Jones** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:52 pm

Ive always wanted to shoot a gun

but the law is the law, and here its forbidden unless u r a cop or a hunter, or u have a good reason to own one.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:19 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:Michaelson, I don't think he'll ever be able to live that one down. He probably didn't have any other options but to walk away!

Probably not, bink, but we're talking almost 25 years ago that this occurred, and I personally know that gun hasn't been taken out of the box since! SURELY you'd think he'd have gotten over it by now...but NOOOoooo.

By the way, she's still as good as shot now, but like she said, she STILL prefers .357's. I don't argue with the woman.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:02 am

I wouldn't argue with her, either. She just might make you her next target!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:54 am

I can still out run her....as long as I hold to a zig zag pattern, I have a bit of a chance getting clear of fire....not much, but some (she's also a great 'trap' shooter, so even this isn't a 'given')

Regards! Michaelson