Bullet proof wested specs

Mola Ram · Post by **Mola Ram** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:57 pm

Ive worn my wested cowhide temple of doom jacket for about 2 years now. But over all that time i realize the changes that i would like to make to it. Ive been thinking of ways to spec it out so its nearly impossible to break anything. If you find something more that could be done point it out. Cowhide is tough, but the strap attachments and the handwarmer pockets seem to catch on things all of the time.

Horsehide
Sidestraps attached inside of the back panel (maybe none at all)
Handwarmer pockets stitched closed
Snaps on the storm flap at the top and bottom

Adam

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:47 pm

How about having the jacket stitched with a heavier thread. I have on old G-1 and the thread is 1/3 or more heavier than that on my Wested. Although I also have an A-2 with thread about the same as my Wested.

No hand warmer pockets is also a good idea. I think the snaps on the storm flap is more a "fashion" chioce than anything.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:07 pm

Not so. I have snaps (AND use them) anytime I zip my jacket, as it takes strain off the top and bottom of the zipper teeth when closed.

HIGHLY recommended, and always added to every jacket I get.

Regards! Michaelson

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:16 pm

The strom flap snaps are there to help keep the elements out. Wind can easily penetrate a zipper. I don't have them on my Wested, but I have a bomber from LL Bean that has them and I find myself snapping the bottom one and leaving the top open. They definitely do serve a purpose though.

-And they are Michaelson tested and approved.

Bjones · Post by **Bjones** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:30 pm

As I'm not in the business of making clothing for a living, I'm not sure exactly what would work on making buletproof improvements to the indy jacket.

Horsehide is a good start,very tough stuff, and the only thing I can think of is reinforced stitching in some of the stress areas. More around the pockets and the split at the base of the action pleats. The handwarmers on my jacket havent been a problem (yet), but with softer/lighter leathers I can see how they would sag after a while and catch. As for the straps, the only way I see to make them stronger is to take the strap and sandwhich it between 2 pieces of leather (or 1 folded over) and x-box stitch it together through all 3 layers (or 4 with the strap being 2 layers). How to do that with the back panel I couldn't guess.

Heavier thread seems logical, but that also puts larger holes in the leather - you would have to balance the tensile strength of the the thread vs weakened leather panel vs stitch count etc....I dunno, but good topic

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:58 pm

Good points Michealson and Hemingway. I never really though about that. Especially the part about it taking strain off of the zipper.

Gater · Post by **Gater** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:10 pm

Altho I never got snaps on any of my Westeds, I have a close-enuff lambskin that I wore for many years that had a snap on the storm flap, and when I wanted to close the jacket part-way, instead of zippering it, I could just snap the button on the bottom, and it would be comfortable and loose, the benefits of having the jacket open, but it was close to my body.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:16 am

Did you say possibly NO side-straps?? Those HAVE toe be there, or it's no longer an Indy jacket.
'Blues

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:49 am

IndyBlues wrote:Did you say possibly NO side-straps?? Those HAVE toe be there, or it's no longer an Indy jacket.
'Blues

I couldn't agree more. This raises another interesting topic: How much can you change, how many details can we tweak, until you reach a point to where it is no longer an Indy jacket?
I agree with Blues, side-straps are a necesssity.
But what if you made it out of Gore-Tex or removed the front pockets, or put a cordoroy collar on it? How much could you alter before it loses its essence?

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:23 am

Hemingway Jones wrote:How much could you alter before it loses its essence?

Not much. IMO for starters it has to be brown leather. It also has to have the Cargo pockets, side straps, action back. I don't think you can stretch it much and still have an Indy jacket. Much beyond what I've listed all you would have is a custom jacket.

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:41 pm

J_Weaver wrote:
Hemingway Jones wrote:How much could you alter before it loses its essence?
Not much. IMO for starters it has to be brown leather. It also has to have the Cargo pockets, side straps, action back. I don't think you can stretch it much and still have an Indy jacket. Much beyond what I've listed all you would have is a custom jacket.

So, by that logic a cotton Raiders jacket is not an Indy Jacket?

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:20 pm

Hemingway Jones wrote:So, by that logic a cotton Raiders jacket is not an Indy Jacket?

Yup, well at least IMO. But its a hard call.

Its really hard to draw a line between where the mods end and a new jacket begins. The cotton Raiders is right smack on that line, perhaps a bit toward the side of a new jacket.

Whats your take Hemingway?

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:29 pm

J_Weaver wrote:
Hemingway Jones wrote:So, by that logic a cotton Raiders jacket is not an Indy Jacket?
Yup, well at least IMO. But its a hard call.

Its really hard to draw a line between where the mods end and a new jacket begins. The cotton Raiders is right smack on that line, perhaps a bit toward the side of a new jacket.

Whats your take Hemingway?

Don't push this back on me!
I think it is a good topic for debate.
Well, let me not cop-out here. Personally, as to the cotton Raiders: it may be cotton, but it is of the perfect brown and provides a bit of trompe l’oeil that looks 100% Raiders to my eye.

Mola Ram · Post by **Mola Ram** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:10 pm

Well,
the straps would have to be installed on the inside of the jacket.
The straps give me the biggest problem. I always seem to catch them on chairs as i get up, and the handwarmer pockets have gotten torn all the way down a few times, because ive triped fell and stuck my hand in there, tearing it out.
Adam

SAB · Post by **SAB** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:33 pm

I've had my cowhide TOD now for over 2 years.
My only regret is that I didn't get a distressed version, because the thing is so tough it'll never really naturally distress.

Even though my cowhide was tough, I also wanted a 'bullet proof' version so:

- goatskin
- handwarmer pockets sewn shut

Its going to last forever, I'm not sure what you'd be doing that you'd need a jacket tougher than that ?

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:37 pm

Why the hate for the handwarmers? I use them all the time, and am thankful I have them. I like the idea of the sidestraps sewn to the inside of the back panel, though. Definetly get X box stitching on it, though. And underarm gussets. I am learning my lesson about not asking for those right now.

Mola Ram · Post by **Mola Ram** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:45 pm

I use them all the time too,
but its, have handwarmer pockets, or have the pockets pulled off...

The under arm gussets are also a must. I realize that now, after i looked at my jacket and noticed a few stitches coming out.
Adam

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:48 pm

The stitching on my sidestraps are coming out now because of the lack of X Box stitching. My next Wested will have that option, for sure. Without underarm gussets, the entire jacket will move with you if you raise your arms above your head, or even perpendicular to your shoulders. Personally, I would keep the handwarmer pockets. They can come in handy.

What about action pleats?

Mola Ram · Post by **Mola Ram** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:59 pm

If they could rivet the pocket opening at the bottom,
then i would consider keeping them, but they just seem to cause too much of a problem. I also forgot the x box stitching and have had to re-attach the straps on each side at least twice.
Adam

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:06 pm

How did you go about re-attatching them??

Indiana Williams · Post by **Indiana Williams** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:54 pm

Strider,
Im sure any tailor could rettach your side straps, or you could send it back to Wested and have it repaired.
Best Regards,
Joe

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:07 pm

Thanks for the tip. Well, I wonder if a tailor could install X box stitching?

Indiana Williams · Post by **Indiana Williams** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:23 pm

Strider wrote:Thanks for the tip. Well, I wonder if a tailor could install X box stitching?

Im sure you could get the X-box stitching done aswell and you could also have the tailor use heavier thread too

Best Regards,
Joe

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:22 pm

So, as far as the specs, what've we got so far?

Horsehide leather
Sidestraps attached inside of the back panel (maybe none at all)
Handwarmer pockets stitched closed
Snaps on the storm flap at the top and bottom
X Box stitching
Underarm gussets

Anything else to add?

Edit: How much did having the straps re-attatched cost, Mola Ram?

Ozraptor · Post by **Ozraptor** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:06 am

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I think a goretex lining would be a nifty idea for an Indy jacket. Don't know if it would be more uncomfortable in hot climes, but in the rain it would certainly keep you dry! My Merrell hiking boots have a Goretex lining, and it sure as #### keeps my feet dry—even with only a suede leather outer.

Feasible?

Rambler · Post by **Rambler** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:01 pm

The strength of the thread is, of course, important; but, the way the thread is used is also important. It is possible for 2 people, following the same pattern, using the same materials on the same sewing machine, to make 2 garments of completely different durabilities.

First of all, locations where the end of a line of stitching occurs can just be left as is (WEAK and it will soon pull out) or a bar tack can be used--for an example of bar-tacks, look at garments meant for hard use like Wrangler jeans or anything by Carrhart. The bar tack is a repeated bar of stiching at the end of and generally perpendicular to the line of stitches (Levi Strauss used rivets to serve the same purpose--clamp the fabric pieces together and spread out the load. It serves as a stopper of unraveling and spreads the load out over a wider area than just one stich....which leads me to the strength of thread. The X on the straps is done for the same reason. Use of a too thin thread leads to cutting of the leather by the thread. A broader cotton/poly thread is softer than a pure synthetic and again, spreads the load out and is stronger in general. However, you want the thread to fail before the leather so forget Kevlar etc. it will slice through the garment and remain intact. You can redo stiches, but once the garment piece is cut, that is a harder repair.
The machine needs to be adjusted for tension depending upon where the stitching is being done. Lazy operators crank up the tension and use the setting for sewing on a zipper to mulitiple layers everywhere else and overstress the thinner regions leading to premature failure. Also, lazy operators do not finish off end of stitch locations and do not trim the hidden side thread. Feel the lining of your jackets looking for stray connected threads around the region of inside the pockets and you may discover what I mean. There may be connected threads hiden in the lining going from one sewn leather region to another.
All of these factors are why you generally pay more for a garment of high quality construction and also why the quality may vary widely and wildly even withing a single manufactuers production depending upon who made it . Remember, inspection usually is of the finished item and many of these lazy tricks are hidden at that point.
I know this may not help in speccing out a garment simce this is very nitpicky stuff; but, it may help in evaluating examples of production to determine overall sewing style and quality.
BTW a Gore Tex lining would not keep the leather dry!

Bullet proof wested specs

Bullet proof wested specs

stiching pattern matters