Thoughts on RoTLA jacket color

[Flattery]

Yesterday I was adjusting the straps on my Wested and noticed something -- one of my sleeves was less shiny than the other (the jacket is goatskin). I rubbed down the jacket with alcohol to reduce the sheen when I first got it. Before I did that, I did note that the color of the sleeves was congruent.

I walked out on my balcony and examined the sleeves in the sunlight. They are both the same color, relatively… but the sleeve with less sheen appears darker, almost black. I scanned my jacket for other areas lacking sheen. Those areas appear darker as well, even though when the jacket is in the right light all the color is the same. This got me thinking about why the Raiders jacket appears very dark brown, black in some scenes, while being a brown jacket -- it has very little sheen to it.

Here's my thoughts on this. Feel free to jump in and point out anything unreasonable, ridiculous, or just downright stupid.

Shiny leather reflects a lot of light, altering its wavelength (or frequency -- whatever it is) to the point where our brains process it as brown. Without sheen (which is really a thin layer on the leather) the light is reflected differently, making it appear darker, as the leather is absorbing more light than is being reflected in the previous case -- in effect, making the color appear darker than it really is under typical lighting.

This could explain the Raiders authentic brown phenomenon. The cameras with which the film was shot are picking up even less of the light frequency/wavelength than our eyes, making the jacket look very very dark because it lacks sheen.

Is this making any sense?

My jacket is dark brown, but I'm sure that if there's any validity to this it would be applicable, to a degree, to lambskin.

[Captain D]

I'm not really sure, but I thought that I had read somewhere that the type of film used back in the early 80's tended to make dark objects look darker (ex: the jacket), and lighter objects look lighter (ex: the shirt)....

I think that's why we can see a slight variation in the color of Indy's shirt from Raiders to Last Crusade as an example. For instance, his shirt looked whiter/brighter in Raiders, but then in Last Crusade it looked like more of an antique white with a hint of brown in it like the old Noel Howard shirt color. Thats why I, and a few other colloectors' here, dyed their Indy shirts to make them look more "screen-accurate" for Raiders.' I could be wrong though and I'm certainly not disputing your theory .

Kind Regards,
Captain D

[J_Weaver]

I think you may have a point there. There is no doubt that different lighting effects how the jacket is seen. The authentic brown is a really strange color. I don't mean strange like a neon green indy jacket, but the way the leather "changes" color in different light. In some light the leather looks quite dull and dark, nearly black. In other light the leather looks shiney and lighter. Then when you add a camera to the equation, it gets even stranger.

Check out these pics. They were taken the same day at the same location only minutes appart.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v320/J_We ... rent=4.jpg


http://photobucket.com/albums/v320/J_We ... rent=3.jpg

[Colby]

I noticed that about my jacket too. Looking at it now it looks light brown. But if I put it on and go into the next room it looks nearly black.

[IllinoisJones]

Aggravating ti is indeed, I opened my jacket this morning, mail lady really early, and it was black, i thought, but not under other lighting, boy is it confusing. Illinois.

[IndyK]

Shiny leather reflects a lot of light, altering its wavelength (or frequency -- whatever it is) to the point where our brains process it as brown. Without sheen (which is really a thin layer on the leather) the light is reflected differently, making it appear darker, as the leather is absorbing more light than is being reflected in the previous case -- in effect, making the color appear darker than it really is under typical lighting.

Please try not to get too scientific about this now? Take my word for it, beeing a pro. photographer: Light, choice of film, post-production etc. all makes their marks on the film. DONT believe that the jacket You examine first hand will appear the same way as a moviejacket that has been through so many steps of post-prod. (Are You comparing to DVD, Laser or the cinema-look You're watching in the dark?...)

The jacket in Raiders had been treated with a swiss armyknife (DVD bonus material) among others, and the jacket had a mat finish that the brand new Westeds dont have. If a surface is mat it wont reflect as much light as a shiny surface. Thats logic. Forget about wawelength and other stuff. The post-prod. and years of copying, digital mastering, editing, contrast variations etc. has taken us miles away from reality.

My advice is to make Your own jacket appear the way You like it and hopefully it will look the same way as Indy's - if ever seen under the same conditions

[Flattery]

Right, I understand all of that. My post is merely a thought that occured to me.

Even though the most well founded and acceptable explanation for how the jacket appears (in this case, everything you said, Indy K), the surface of the leather and lighting does have a calculable effect when looking at leather first hand.

My main point was that my jacket resembled the Raiders color once the sheen had been removed, and so I had to ask myself, why is that? since it the jacket is real and not on film -- so that's what I came up with.

So when it really comes down to it:
Raiders jacket color -- product of editing, post production, lighting, etc.
Real jacket resembling the film jacket -- lack of sheen, some distressing, and lighting.

DONT believe that the jacket You examine first hand will appear the same way as a moviejacket that has been through so many steps of post-prod.

I don't -- my post was speculative. The key word here is resemblance.

and the jacket had a mat finish that the brand new Westeds dont have. If a surface is mat it wont reflect as much light as a shiny surface. Thats logic. Forget about wawelength and other stuff.

True, but since I've never seen the real movie jacket, no viable comparison exists for my observations as stated before. So many things can affect how a jacket looks, color wise -- of course that's true. But when all of that is simplified, it has to do with how our brains interpret the information given to it by the eyes -- so light frequency and wavelength is relevant in order to explain, at least with any reasonable intelligence, how the color of a real jacket (in this case) shifts in different light so drastically. In the end, though, you're right -- it's not that important.

My advice is to make Your own jacket appear the way You like it and hopefully it will look the same way as Indy's

I sure hope so! I couldn't agree more.

[Harrison_Davies]

Can I ask what kind of alcohol you used to reduce the sheen, and in what quantities?

Thanks.

[Flattery]

Can I ask what kind of alcohol you used to reduce the sheen, and in what quantities?

I used 70% isopropyl rubbing alcohol. I had to use quite a bit with cotton balls -- enough so that I could see the alcohol wet on the jacket for a few seconds before it evaporated. Overall, I didn't use much of the bottle. It's been a while so I don't know how I should measure exactly how much I used.

For goatskin, I'd recommend using a higher percentage content of alcohol, that way you won't have to use as much.

The jacket still has some sheen to it, but I plan on removing more of it sometime soon.

Someone else here (old, old thread) said they used a small amount of alcohol, but did it in multiple coatings -- three or four, I think. But don't quote me on that.

EDIT:
Found it. It was posted by Koreana Jones (referring to a lambskin jacket):

First I applied 70% alcohol 3 times to the jacket. On a paper towel. 2 times one day and once the next day.

View the whole thread here:
viewtopic.php?t=3461&highlight=alcohol+jacket

A quick search for the words "alcohol," "jacket," and/or "shine" should give you fair results.

[Harrison_Davies]

Thanks a lot...for some reason people don't mind me wearing two belts carring a gas mask bag, fedora, all they complain about is my shiny jacket. Go figure

[IndyK]

Right, I understand all of that. My post is merely a thought that occured to me.
my post was speculative. The key word here is resemblance.

OK then, didn't want to sound like a teacher

I forgot to mention that I've been going through the same thoughts for a long time, I've just done so many photo experiments that I believe the resemblance can only come from an overdistressed jacket in low light. A very good example is the scene from LC in the motorcykle where Indys father wants to go to Berlin. It's one of the few times we get to see the jacket close-up, in bright sunlight and not moving around. It's very obvious that this jacket looks totally different from the Raiders "look" and I personally dont like the look of the jacket in this LC scene.

I sold my cow-hide for some of those reasons. Cowhide certainly has the durability and weight You would expect from an adventurers jacket, but it didn't look the part. Silly gearhead me

My goat looks and feels so good that it might be the adventurers choice today, but my winterproject will hopefully be a photoproject with the lambjacket, trying to achieve just what Your thoughts is about - resemblance.

Cheers

[Flattery]

My goat looks and feels so good that it might be the adventurers choice today, but my winterproject will hopefully be a photoproject with the lambjacket, trying to achieve just what Your thoughts is about - resemblance.

Goat is wonderful -- I haven't had a problem with it, but I still can't resist the temptation to get another lambskin jacket.

Please post pics of your project when they're ready -- I'd love to see them!

It's very obvious that this jacket looks totally different from the Raiders "look" and I personally dont like the look of the jacket in this LC scene.

I do, and I don't. So I compromised by distressing my jacket just a bit, but all in the same spots.

I spend more time on my jacket than I do my grail diary these days.

[IndyK]

Please post pics of your project when they're ready -- I'd love to see them!

I spend more time on my jacket than I do my grail diary these days.

I will. I try to achieve the look I always think of first; The scene where Indy picks up the sand for the bag in the opening scene, "This is where Forrestal...etc.". Thats my favourite impression of the jacket and the one that will always be the goal.

When I first read it I thought You would say: "I spend more time ON my jacket than IN my jacket these days..."

Cheers