First post. A few questions

[RandallFlagg]

Hello all. Great place ya have here!

I saw Raiders hundreds of times in my youth when it came to the theaters. The whip was the most intriguing thing I'd ever seen at my young age and I was intent on learning how to use one. However, the Parents weren't too keen on buying me something to put my eye out with at the age of 10. My Grandparents had an old, crusty three-foot black whip that mainly cracked when I held it -from age, not usage.

I finally weaved some rope around a couple of thin pieces of fishing pole and tied a strap of leather to the tip. It was ten feet long and I was pretty good at taking the tops of bottles off, cutting through phonebooks, tearing limbs from trees and other unmentionable mischief. I could even swing from the rafters in the garage with it.

Well, I'm in my mid-thirties now. Served in the Navy as a boatswain's mate (Know how to REALLY weave stuff together), married with 2 Sons. I have a great job and can afford to buy any of Morgan's whips if I choose. However, I'd rather have a whip I can call my own; one that has my sweat in it's creation. Also, it would be a nice skill to pass along to my boys when they get older.

My questions are simple: What's the best whipmaking and whipcracking books out there? I know I have the skills, I just would like the data required to be the best.

Thanks in advance, all.

[USNavyBlueAngel]

Welcome aboard, mate!

Western Stage Props is an excellent source for everything you are looking for. They sell quality whips from the top makers, whip cracking videos & books, and other accessories.

Here's the URL:


http://tinyurl.com/czz8m


There are also a few great whipmakers on this board that you might want to talk to - midwestwhips, winrichwhips, & Robert Duke (can't remember his screen name) to name a few.

[Spooky]

Welcome to the Forum, Randall !
This is a great place full of very friendly and knowledgeable folks.

There are some really talented whipmakers who are forum members.
I'm sure you'll soon be swimming in new information.

Best Regards,

P.S.> Stephen King fan or is that your real name?
Randall Flagg ... AKA:
The Walking Dude, RF, Ahaz, The Dark Man,The Man with No Face, Anubis, Astaroth, Richard Fry, Ramsey Forrest, Robert Franq, John the Conqueror, The Midnight Rambler, Nyarlohotep, Old Creeping Judas, R'yelah, Seti.

[RandallFlagg]

Welcome to the Forum, Randall !
This is a great place full of very friendly and knowledgeable folks.

There are some really talented whipmakers who are forum members.
I'm sure you'll soon be swimming in new information.

Best Regards,

Thanks. I've been lurking here for about 2 weeks and am really impressed at some of the pics here. I signed up to join the same day, but haven't had time to post yet until tonight.

P.S.> Stephen King fan or is that your real name?
Randall Flagg ... AKA:
The Walking Dude, RF, Ahaz, The Dark Man,The Man with No Face, Anubis, Astaroth, Richard Fry, Ramsey Forrest, Robert Franq, John the Conqueror, The Midnight Rambler, Nyarlohotep, Old Creeping Judas, R'yelah, Seti.

Heh! I looked like Flagg from the miniseries a few years ago (according to my Sister). It just kinda stuck.

However, the fact that I have my name listed in the phonebook as, "Randall Flagg" makes it easy to get rid of telemarketers.

[RandallFlagg]

Welcome aboard, mate!

Western Stage Props is an excellent source for everything you are looking for. They sell quality whips from the top makers, whip cracking videos & books, and other accessories.

Here's the URL:


http://tinyurl.com/czz8m


There are also a few great whipmakers on this board that you might want to talk to - midwestwhips, winrichwhips, & Robert Duke (can't remember his screen name) to name a few.

Nice pics there. Thanks.

[ecwhips]

Probably the best book you're going to find on making a whip is How To Make Whips, by Ron Edwards. It really goes into every aspect of making a whip, from the different types of whips (bullwhip, stockwhip, snakewhip, etc.) to the different leathers you can use; preparation of leather; making plaiting soap; braiding, making knots, etc. It really is a wealth of info on the subject, although the bullwhip instructions are very rudimentary. Besides that book, I recommend talking to as many whipmakers as you can. There are a quite a few on this forum including myself, Paul Stenhouse, Adam Winrich, Robert Duke, etc. I think Joe Strain even lurks here once in a while. I couldn't have made the progress I made without having received great advice from Paul Stenhouse, Mike Murphy, and a bunch of other great whipmakers I've met over the years.

Anyway, best of luck!

Jim

[RandallFlagg]

I was just reading about it from the link provided by USNavyBlueAngel. It it better than Morgan's book? Should I get both?

[Ghost]

Go to amazon.com and order the books... How To Make Whips, by Ron Edwards seems to go in to more of the basics and Morgan's book is a GREAT book but not as step by step. If you'd like some instant info go here...
http://www.em-brand-whips.com/bulltutorial.htm

Some cool videos to get started and a walkthrough that has some interesting stuff.

[ecwhips]

As Ghost said, Morgan's books are excellent but they're not step by step instructional books. Definitely add them to your collection, but get How To Make Whips for the step by step instructions. In fact, David Morgan wrote the forward to How To Make Whips.

Jim

[RandallFlagg]

THAT'S what I wanted to know. Thanks to you both.

I'll keep y'all updated on how it goes. Got some shopping to do tomorrow.

[ecwhips]

Oh, and absolutely join the Australian Plaiters and Whipmakers Association. It is run by Ron Edwards, and they put out newsletters that are packed with great info on everything whipmaking and leathercraft. You can also order all of the back issues in their archives. Here's their link:
http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/ramskull/

Jim

[RandallFlagg]

It says you're a vender. I just looked at a deerhide whip and would like to post the same question to you that I did to winrichwhips: How does deerhide handle, and is it easy to work with? Here's the pic from the site:
http://www.winrichwhips.com./images/Deer-Whip2.jpg

[ecwhips]

I've never used deerhide for a whip, so I can't say from experience. I have to ask Adam where he got that leather from, because I haven't been able to find deerhide like that anywhere.

Jim

[RandallFlagg]

Well, the reason I'm asking is because some fellas from work is going hunting soon. I just thought that if I could convince them to give me the hides, I could do a little experimenting with them.

[BullWhipBorton]

Hello Rendell, Welcome to Indy gear. I’m no whip maker, but I know what makes a good whip and I know how to make them crack. If you want to make a really good sturdy whip, get as much information as you can. Ron Edwards book is a must, so is David Morgan’s. There’s another book called Whipmaking: a beginner’s guide, by Dennis Rush. It might be out of print I haven’t seen it in a few years, but if you can track it down I seem to remember it was pretty straightforward. There are a few others on braiding and bush craft that touch on whip making as well, they available though Western Stage Props, David Morgan, etc, and I am sure you could find them on Amazon and to echo Jim statement, join the Australian Plaiters and Whipmakers Association. Whip making is an art form in itself so Good luck.

Deer hide can be a bit iffy at times so you need to be careful. Commercially tanned deer tends to be a bit light, stretchy and spongy, not so good for whips. I’ve heard brain tanned deer hide works better. I think Adam uses chrome tanned deer hide so he must be finding a decent supply of hides from some one, im sure he can fill you in on the details. Look forward to hearing your progress. All the best

Dan

[winrichwhips]

Hi Randall,

Well, if you can get the deerhide for free, than you might as well experiement with it. The only deal with deerhide is that it is really stretchy accross the body and not that stretchy along the spine, so you have to constantly watch the stretch to get a lace that might work for braiding.

I tell everybody who wants to make a whip to start with a stock whip, but NO ONE EVER LISTENS TO ME! I don't get the fxxxgxn' american obsession with bullwhips (okay, I do, I do, it's just the stockwhip is a better whip, at least for learning whipmaking, if not whipcracking). In Ron Edwards's book the only designs that are any good are the 4-plait latigo stockwhip and the 8-plait kangaroo stockwhip. The bullwhip design, as Morgan told me, is 'for the birds.'

Any way, a 4-plait stockwhip has some advantages as a first whip-

#1: it takes less material to make a stockwhip, thus costing less money in the initial whip, and less money when making the second or third to work out all the bugs

#2: there are fewer things that can go wrong when making a stockwhip, so you'll have fewer things that you have to change/work out when trying to make a good whip.

#3: If you want to crack the whip, it's easier for a beginner to make a stock whip that will handle well than a bullwhip. For someone with no experience with whips they might not know any better, but trust me on this one.

#4: There are great instructions in Ron Edwards's book to make such a whip, but there are no instructions that are as good for making a bullwhip. There used to be a small brown book called 'Whips and Whipmaking' by Dennis Rush. I bought my copy from Tandy Leather, but they don't sell it anymore. Some of his methods left a little to be desired, but overall the bullwhip designs were good.


-Adam

[The_Edge]

My advice is to first buy Whips and Whipmaking, 2nd Edition by David Morgan . There is a plethora of information in this book about building a whip if you truly read it and pay attention. This is the whip bible in my opinion. Morgans' other book, Techinques of the Australian Whipmakers,is excellent as well.

Next buy Ron Edwards' book which has some excellent techniques in it. Severely lacks in making a good bullwhip though.

Check out Bernie Wojicicki's (sp?) EMBrand whips website and DVDs for some great tutorials.

Speak with and get as much information you can from established whip makers. One on one instruction is the best way to go if possible.

Now this is the most important part...buy a good whip and learn how to use it first. Learn the proper technique of why and how it cracks and what it feels like. Do not set about making a whip with out this foundation. Anyone can braid leather. But in order to make a whip you need to know where you're going and why before you even start start because every step of the process has a specific purpose. Do the research, find a quality whip from a trusted maker and then buy some instructional videos before you start on your own path.

Finally, I agree with Adam. Try stock whips first. They're fun as heck, easy to learn and highly customizable.

Good luck.

[Mola Ram]

My advice is to first buy Whips and Whipmaking, 2nd Edition by David Morgan . There is a plethora of information in this book about building a whip if you truly read it and pay attention. This is the whip bible in my opinion. Morgans' other book, Techinques of the Australian Whipmakers,is excellent as well.

Next buy Ron Edwards' book which has some excellent techniques in it. Severely lacks in making a good bullwhip though.

Check out Bernie Wojicicki's (sp?) EMBrand whips website and DVDs for some great tutorials.

Speak with and get as much information you can from established whip makers. One on one instruction is the best way to go if possible.

Now this is the most important part...buy a good whip and learn how to use it first. Learn the proper technique of why and how it cracks and what it feels like. Do not set about making a whip with out this foundation. Anyone can braid leather. But in order to make a whip you need to know where you're going and why before you even start start because every step of the process has a specific purpose. Do the research, find a quality whip from a trusted maker and then buy some instructional videos before you start on your own path.

Finally, I agree with Adam. Try stock whips first. They're fun as heck, easy to learn and highly customizable.

Good luck.

Yes,
stockwhips are a LOT easier. I started with a bullwhip, then wondered why afterwords why i did that. You dont need to buy a whip first and learn how to use it. In my case i dident have the choice, but if you do have the choice id say go for it.
Adam
Adam

[The_Edge]

Yes,
stockwhips are a LOT easier. I started with a bullwhip, then wondered why afterwords why i did that. You dont need to buy a whip first and learn how to use it. In my case i dident have the choice, but if you do have the choice id say go for it.
Adam

Adam,

If I remember correctly, at the time you became interested in whips and whip making your folks did not allow you to purchase a whip so you had to make do. Perfectly understandable and I admire your resourcefulness.

However, if one has the resources available to purchase a quality whip and study it's handlng and finish before attempting to make their own I highly recommend it. There is a wealth of knowledge to be gained from cracking a well balanced and designed whip built by a professional.

[RandallFlagg]

Well, today I went out to Tandy's and got some remnant strips to try out different braiding techniques. In the Navy (Que the Village People), we called them "Sennets". A, "Square Sennet" is simply eight strands laid out 4 on one side and 4 on the other. You take the farthest one on the left and bring it behind the closest one on the right, and back to make it the closest one on the left. Then you do the same with the farthest one on the right to the closest on the left, and back as the last one. Clinching it up good and tight after four repeating steps. The square sennet makes a really nice and tight braid, but I don't know if that's what's used for whipmaking.

I first did a simple four-strand (In whips, they're called, "Pleats," right?) and then a six-strand; braiding, undoing, braiding again, just to see if I could still remember what I used to do so many years ago. I worked on modifying my work to account for the fact that I was working with strips of leather, not the synthetic nylon lines we used in the Navy. Then, I asked myself, "Could I do this with an odd number of strands? Could I bring the strands around the front instead of the back and get a different result?" I tried seven strands and it looked OK. Nine looked better. It was about then that my kids wanted to play and I had to stop and be Daddy for the rest of the evening.

Adam, I was able to find a used copy of the book you suggested: 'Whips and Whipmaking' by Dennis Rush' on Amazon. It's on it's way. I'll order "Whips and Whipmaking, 2nd Edition by David Morgan" next payday.

I'll keep you all updated when I can. I work 12-hour shifts until Sunday evening starting Thursday.

You good folks take care until then.

[RandallFlagg]

OH! I forgot! The_Edge and Adam:

I was very, umm, obsessive, when I was a ten-year-old kid wanting a whip. I made it to match the one used in the movie except for the materials I made it with. I know it handled like a real bullwhip because I went to the local stock show and tried a real one out to compare mine with their's. I tried stockwhips and the stick just seemed to get in my way for some reason. I couldn't get used to NOT using my wrist to add the power, and it threw off my aim more than my first bullwhip did. The old little whip my Grandparents gave me was a signal whip, and it didn't last long at all -couldn't even crack the thing.

The bullwhip is the goal for me. It's the only kind I'm used to.

[ecwhips]

I have a copy of the Dennis Rush book that I found on Ebay a couple of years ago. It's okay as a beginners guide, but it's very rudimentary and I question a couple of his techniques in the book. But it should get you started, though.

Jim

[RandallFlagg]

I got the book and have been braiding madly here at work. I must have braided the same strips about fifty times since the book arrived Friday.

I also dug around on Ebay and found a good amount of kangaroo leather hides for sale. Not as expensive as I thought.

THIS is gonna be FUN! Even the folks here at work are starting to get into it. The wisecracks of, "Oh, a whip, eh? The Wife needin' a little discipline at home, huh?" have finally diminished.

[RandallFlagg]

YES! A worker who's REALLY into hunting is cleaning out his garage and will sell me his deer/elk hides cheap.

Anyone here do any tanning?

[racerx]

I can't remember where for sure, Tandyleather perhapts, but I remember seeing something called tanning in a box, a do it yourself thing
for deer,
its possible that the stuff might even be found on ebay, not sure how easy it works though, but might just be the ticket if you can't find someone to tan it for you the old fasion way.


Good luck.


Jim J.

[racerx]

I can't remember where for sure, Tandyleather perhapts, but I remember seeing something called tanning in a box, a do it yourself thing
for deer,
its possible that the stuff might even be found on ebay, not sure how easy it works though, but might just be the ticket if you can't find someone to tan it for you the old fasion way.


Good luck.


Jim J.

[RandallFlagg]

I'll hunt it down. Thanks.

[Paul_Stenhouse]

Dear Randall,

As one who makes whips, let me offer you a piece of advice. That is, find someone in your area who does plaiting work. It doesn't necessarily have to be a whipmaker, but that will help. The reason I say this is centered around the tips, tricks, and hints that you won't find in a book.

Let me give you an example of something I've never seen in a book. "When dropping strands, the first few stitches that one runs should be pulled against the thumb, instead of pulled from the hook. As I've found, this keeps gaps from forming in the plaiting right at the drop point." Now, unless you've tried this, what I've said may not make sense. But, it makes sense to those in the know. That, and the evolution of whipmaking is one that has occurred over many years, and it's something that you can't expect to do at home over a period of time (i.e., reinvent the evolution of whipmaking). When I started, I spent a great deal of time talking technique with David Morgan, and off I'd go, armed with a new skin, and some more knowledge. But, there came a time when I couldn't get any better on my own, and so spent time with him refining my ability.

Above all, I wish you luck in your trials with whipmaking. I speak for many when I tell you that at times, it's one of the most frustrating things in life. But, this frustration is diminished by the satisfaction one receives when viewing and using the finished product. There are plenty of people around to ask for help, that's for sure. But, if you can find someone in your area that does plaiting work, look them up!

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

[BullWhipBorton]

Randall, I’ve done some hide tanning. Taking the raw hide from start to finished leather can be a messy job. If this sounds like something you want to try though, there are many ways to go about it. If you want do chemical tanning, various kits and creams are available on the market, especially this time of year. You can also go with the more traditional methods like bark or brain tanning. I’ll add a few links for you to help get you started. Aside form my obsession with whips; I have an interest in archaic skills and technologies. (atlatls, flint knapping, etc.) One of the other forums I visit has a section on hide tanning. It might be a good place to check for more information. http://pub3.ezboard.com/bpaleoplanet69529

www.braintan.com
www.nwtrappers.com/catalog/other/tanningkits.asp
www.taxidermy.com/cat/01/mammaltan.html

Dan

[RandallFlagg]

Thanks, Paul.

The thing is, I have the skills that I received from being a Boatswain's Mate in the Navy. Thusfar, it seems to be a refining of those skills to match the skills of leather braiding and whipmaking. Since I began, I must have done about a couple dozen variants between six plait and 28. No reason, I was simply experimenting with what I knew. The duct tape was the weirdest thing, but it was also the best looking -considering I wasn't using flat pieces of leather to practice with for the last week.

Something else I've noticed from this new hobby of mine: My wrists and elbows don't hurt anymore.

Being able to actually MAKE it is important. I want something that has my time and sweat in it. I couldn't get this from a purchase.

I'm addicted now. There's no stoppin' me.

[RandallFlagg]

Randall, I’ve done some hide tanning. Taking the raw hide from start to finished leather can be a messy job. If this sounds like something you want to try though, there are many ways to go about it. If you want do chemical tanning, various kits and creams are available on the market, especially this time of year. You can also go with the more traditional methods like bark or brain tanning. I’ll add a few links for you to help get you started. Aside form my obsession with whips; I have an interest in archaic skills and technologies. (atlatls, flint knapping, etc.) One of the other forums I visit has a section on hide tanning. It might be a good place to check for more information. http://pub3.ezboard.com/bpaleoplanet69529

www.braintan.com
www.nwtrappers.com/catalog/other/tanningkits.asp
www.taxidermy.com/cat/01/mammaltan.html

Dan

MMMmmm! I'm bookmarking those links! Thanks, Dan!

[BullWhipBorton]

No problem Randall, glad to help. Just as an FYI there is a tack company in Denver Colorado called Down Under Saddle Supply. They carry a modest selection of Australian bull and stockwhips. I can’t speak for the quality personally, but they don’t look too bad. I know you are not interested in buying a whip, however; since the company is local, you might want to visit and Take a look at what they have on hand. That way you can get a better idea on how these whips are made and how they are supposed to feel.

www.downunderweb.com

Dan

[RandallFlagg]

WOO! I'm going tomorrow!

Thanks again!

[RandallFlagg]

I'm gonna try to keep all of my questions pertaining to this on a single thread.

I went to the Down Under shop today and have another question.
There was about thirty bullwhips on a rack and I went to see their patterns, weights, size, etc.

I was always under the assumption that the bullwhip is thicker and longer than the ones I saw there. Those were between 9-12" between the butt and the Turk's Head knot. And the diameter of the handle was only under an inch -I thought it'd be considerably thicker. They were really light as well. It seems as if they were made for younger folks to use. What do y'all think?

ALSO, I told ya that I was acquiring a braiding addiction from this. So, I yanked out a batch of duct tape, and started going around a plastic tube from who knows where:


I wonder what else I'll be braiding with this stuff.....

[winrichwhips]

Randall,

The sizes of the bullwhips you saw is pretty typical. Most people like cracking their whips, and not having to lift weights before hand to do it. Now I feel the trend in whips is towards the lightest, smallest possible whip that will still give a satisfying crack.

I've made cowhide bullwhips as large as 1.125 inches in diameter, and these were considered huge. 1" is all the bigger just about any bullwhip ever gets.

I like the look of your duct tape plaiting. I'm sure as soon as you get your hands on some leather and get used to cutting it we'll see some pics of a nice-looking whip.

-Adam

[RandallFlagg]

Randall,

The sizes of the bullwhips you saw is pretty typical. Most people like cracking their whips, and not having to lift weights before hand to do it. Now I feel the trend in whips is towards the lightest, smallest possible whip that will still give a satisfying crack.

These were priced in between $175-250 each. That's why I thought they were for younger whip users.

I've made cowhide bullwhips as large as 1.125 inches in diameter, and these were considered huge. 1" is all the bigger just about any bullwhip ever gets.

Hmmm. Would this include the one used in Raiders? I distinctly remember Harrison Ford coiling his up after whacking Barranca's hand and it looked rather large -unless Mr. Ford has smaller hands than I thought.

I like the look of your duct tape plaiting. I'm sure as soon as you get your hands on some leather and get used to cutting it we'll see some pics of a nice-looking whip.

-Adam

Thanks. As usual, I'm having to wait for another payday before making any real purchases. The duct tape is great for practice, but it makes my hands a bit sticky after braiding for more than 5 minutes. There's a Tandy warehouse about 10 miles from my house that had a huge selection of leather all over it's walls.

I'll be happily sharpening my knives in anticipation. I read that it's better to cut the lengths by hand rather than a cutter because it provides more practice in working the leather. That, and you need to have your eyes closer to your work, and are able to see any imperfections in the cut and the leather.

I use a Lansky diamond stone set to sharpen my knives. Used them since my Navy days. Those stones take forever to wear down. I love 'em.

[BullWhipBorton]

Randall, What you described sounds about right. Australian style kangaroo hide bullwhips in general do tend to be thinner and lighter, especially when your comparing them to the thicker heavy latigo bullwhips. Handles don’t have to be thick, that is personal preference. I think all of my kangaroo hide whips, Including the David Morgan Indiana Jones bullwhips are just a hair or two larger then the diameter of U.S. quarter at their thickest part of the thong.

Btw your plaiting is looking good.

Dan

[RandallFlagg]

I'm going out to buy leather today. Time to take the plunge.

[RandallFlagg]

New question:

What's everyone's rough estimate on how many square feet of material one would need to make a 10-foot, 16-plait bullwhip? Just a rough guess.

[Paul_Stenhouse]

I'd guess about 75-80 DM, which is somewhere around 7+ square feet. I can get a 10 foot whip out of that size, and just use one skin only.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

[RandallFlagg]

Really? Does that include the core(s)? I picked up eleven square feet yesterday for my project and was wondering if it would be enough.
Considering that I'm expecting to make more than a few mistakes, I guess the extra material wouldn't hurt..

[Paul_Stenhouse]

Hi Randall,

I didn't include the bolsters, which are not much more than an elongated triangle, which helps achieve taper and shape. I typically cut these separate from english kip leather.

Do yourself a favor and take measurements and notes on the whips you make. If you want to make more than one, you'll reinvent the wheel every time. I was given this advice by David Morgan, and told him, "Oh, I'll remember what I'm doing." Big shocker there, I didn't! So the first three whips I made, I reinvented the wheel. Took measurements on the next two (an 8 and a 10), and was able to extrapolate the measurements for 3-16 feet. It's my cheat sheet that I use constantly. Otherwise, I'd have to remember close to 100 numbers (and that ain't happening in my feeble brain).

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

[RandallFlagg]

LOL! I'm actually one of those rare folks who proudly admits that I have a terrible memory. My Wife will attest to this.