I am curious. My guess is that taper is caused by the felt getting wet and then changing shape as it dries. So in theory if waterproofing prevents the water penetrating the felt and instead makes it bead on top it seems logical it woudl prevent tapering? Is this right?
Continuing this line of thought, does waterproofing the hat also work against humidity?
Also, how waterproof can you actually make the hat?
Finally any other advice on how to prevent taper?
Ken
Does waterproofing prevent taper?
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Indiana Jerry
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I'll leave the main question for those who know more...
...but since the weird fact is right up my alley, I can field one of them...
...there are products that can waterproof things 100%. Anything. I had a waterproofer from the old Frye boots chain (wish I could remember who made this stuff) that would waterproof anything.
Really. It was made for leather boots, but they said you could use it on anything. So I did.
It was raining one night I went out to wait in a long line for a concert...so I sprayed the shoulders of my denim jacket. Worked...the rain just beaded up and rolled off me. Dry!
For fun I sprayed a tissue. Yeah, like a kleenex. Just sprayed a four inch circle of the stuff. Then I poked it a little down into my hand to make a little pouch or cup out of the sprayed part. Then I poured water into it. It worked, held the water. IT WATERPROOFED A KLEENEX.
So I'm assuming there has GOT to be something that could completely waterproof a hat. Hopefully, without damaging it.
J
...but since the weird fact is right up my alley, I can field one of them...
...there are products that can waterproof things 100%. Anything. I had a waterproofer from the old Frye boots chain (wish I could remember who made this stuff) that would waterproof anything.
Really. It was made for leather boots, but they said you could use it on anything. So I did.
It was raining one night I went out to wait in a long line for a concert...so I sprayed the shoulders of my denim jacket. Worked...the rain just beaded up and rolled off me. Dry!
For fun I sprayed a tissue. Yeah, like a kleenex. Just sprayed a four inch circle of the stuff. Then I poked it a little down into my hand to make a little pouch or cup out of the sprayed part. Then I poured water into it. It worked, held the water. IT WATERPROOFED A KLEENEX.
So I'm assuming there has GOT to be something that could completely waterproof a hat. Hopefully, without damaging it.
J
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binkmeisterRick
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Indiana Jerry
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Wow, I think that the only way to waterproof a hat is to shellac it. The hat stiffener acts as a waterproofing agent. Then you sacrifice softness and have a hat that if you bend it, it breaks.
There are many water repellants out there that can help, such as Scotchgard and B&L but this is only part of the reason for taper. Isn't taper caused by shrinkage? I believe the wetting and drying just removes the natural oils and moisture causing the hat to shrink.
JPDesigns and Steve (and about a million other folks) know far more than I ever will about this, but if you stop a hat from shrinking, the taper slows to a crawl. I have been working on this with my hats. My theory is that taper is moisture related. Not necessarily water, but the natural oils. Remove ALL that moisture and reblock the hat.
Stretching a felt with no moisture causes microscopic tears that allow the hat to assume the shape of the block - and help keep it, since the tears prevent the felt fibers from pulling back if that makes sense. Then you can oil the felt all you want and it can be soft and pliable, but the tears will still be there. The finer the felt hairs, the smaller the tears.
My theory only, but I have seen this happen with other materials that use a similar process to produce and dry. You read it here first. That is why I think that vintage felt is better. I think it was dried more thoroughly and certainly has lost most of the oils over the years - especially if it has been worn.
I work with huge synthetic felts on a machine. These have nylon woven into them, but they act as the old felts that we used to use. They go onto the machine dry and before we can start the machine, the felt must be wet thoroughly to prevent it from ripping. Just as wet felt fibers shorten as they dry, they also can stretch to a good degree when wet and force is applied.
There are many water repellants out there that can help, such as Scotchgard and B&L but this is only part of the reason for taper. Isn't taper caused by shrinkage? I believe the wetting and drying just removes the natural oils and moisture causing the hat to shrink.
JPDesigns and Steve (and about a million other folks) know far more than I ever will about this, but if you stop a hat from shrinking, the taper slows to a crawl. I have been working on this with my hats. My theory is that taper is moisture related. Not necessarily water, but the natural oils. Remove ALL that moisture and reblock the hat.
Stretching a felt with no moisture causes microscopic tears that allow the hat to assume the shape of the block - and help keep it, since the tears prevent the felt fibers from pulling back if that makes sense. Then you can oil the felt all you want and it can be soft and pliable, but the tears will still be there. The finer the felt hairs, the smaller the tears.
My theory only, but I have seen this happen with other materials that use a similar process to produce and dry. You read it here first. That is why I think that vintage felt is better. I think it was dried more thoroughly and certainly has lost most of the oils over the years - especially if it has been worn.
I work with huge synthetic felts on a machine. These have nylon woven into them, but they act as the old felts that we used to use. They go onto the machine dry and before we can start the machine, the felt must be wet thoroughly to prevent it from ripping. Just as wet felt fibers shorten as they dry, they also can stretch to a good degree when wet and force is applied.
Rick may be correct. I do know that in order for me to make a hat, a raw body has to be pulled over the hat block. This involves stretching the felt, at least on Indy fedoras. See, many hat blocks are tapered blocks, some more than others. The Indy block has some taper, but nothng compared to most block shapes. Compared to the others, it looks very straight sided. So, from the get-go the Raiders fedora block stretches the top half of the hat in the blocking process. In order to prevent tearing the felt, you must either use a vast amount of steam, or you wet block them with very hot water. Both ways serve to loosen up the felted cone so that you do not hurt the felt when you stretch in over the block. You must know, through experience, when to stop with the stretching. You can stretch too much, and stress the felt. There are a few techniques that you use to set that block shape, so that when it comes off the block, it does not immediately start returning to the original body shape. But, remember, if it is a straight sided hat, the whole upper crown has been stretched and stabilized. Several factors affect this stabilization. Like the type of felt used, the degree of stiffener in the crown(more stiffener, less taper over time), water repellant treatment, heat, and moisture. As much as we would like them to be, felt hats and a drenching rain do not go together. Nothing will unstabilize the shape quicker than a complete, down to the core soaking, and then drying. For a general work hat, this would present no problems to the felt, as work hats are not judged by the degree of taper, over time. It is only when you want to maintain a straightsided look that you must be careful of how you treat the hat. You can take one of my bodies, block it on a tapered block, and it will hold that shape forever, almost. That full Raiders block is a different animal though. Fedora
Steve, can a hat be stressed into shape, short of ripping? Kind of like a rubber hose that is very flexible, but a bit too much force blows a bubble in the hose and nothing will make that go away. Of course, do it on a microscopic scale and in many places so you do not walk around with a giant bulge in your hat. 
Steve, can a hat be stressed into shape, short of ripping? Kind of like a rubber hose that is very flexible, but a bit too much force blows a bubble in the hose and nothing will make that go away. Of course, do it on a microscopic scale and in many places so you do not walk around with a giant bulge in your hat.
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From my own personal experience a stressed crown quickly reverts to the unstressed form, and this may be noticed as a super taper. Not just a slight bit of taper..........imagine the most tapered TOD fedora to visualize what I am trying to say. I have seen new hats taper that much when they got wet, or exposed to heat. That is a sign the felt was stressed when blocked. I think many factory hats are stressed and this is why when they taper, they really taper.
With that said, stressing is not good for any felt. In the felting process each type of fur has it own natural felting speed. That is, the time it takes the felt to entertwine, shrink, etc. If pushed through the rollers too fast, the felt is being forced to felt quicker than is natural for the type of fur being used. If allowed to felt at its own natural rate, you end up with good felt. Now, if you take this felt and stressed it out, you are literally pulling it apart, as you mentioned. You have little tears. When the stressed out felt shrinks back down, through moisture and heat, this felt is not as strong as it was. No rollers helped it felt back the way, it just shrunk back. And a complete felting may not have taken place. Hmm, I am going around the world here. So, it would make some sense to think that if you stressed the felt enough, tore it enough, to the point that it could not felt(shrink) back together, you would have a taper resisitant hat. Fedora
That is what I am hoping for. A hat that has had all the moisture and natural oils removed - maybe using an industrial strength degreaser - and then has been stressed just enough during blocking to prevent it from reverting back to a cone shape.
After the fact, it can be treated with a nice oil rub to allow the fibers to absorb the oils again after the tears have been made. With the original oils still in the hat, the tears may not be possible, so I would think it would have to be done that way.
A little B&L and I would think you are good to go...
How important is felt strength, other than during blocking? If the felt is dense enough, wouldn't it resist the infamous crease tear more? As you know TLC is not one of my qualities.
These are all questions I have kept pent up inside for a while
After the fact, it can be treated with a nice oil rub to allow the fibers to absorb the oils again after the tears have been made. With the original oils still in the hat, the tears may not be possible, so I would think it would have to be done that way.
A little B&L and I would think you are good to go...
How important is felt strength, other than during blocking? If the felt is dense enough, wouldn't it resist the infamous crease tear more? As you know TLC is not one of my qualities.
These are all questions I have kept pent up inside for a while
How important is felt strength, other than during blocking? If the felt is dense enough, wouldn't it resist the infamous crease tear more? As you know TLC is not one of my qualities.
I think felt strength is just an indication of a properly felted hat. A high quality felt is strong. I have pulled a few hats over the block, of low quality felt, and they would actually tear!! A nightmare. I wish I were a true expert on felt, but I am not. And short of talking to a feltmaker, we may never know for sure many of the questions that we have, both you and I, Rick. For instance. I have seen felt bodies that you could literally stretch out like a rubber band. Like the felt was so loose and porous, and elastic. But, the finer bodies that I have worked with, both modern and vintage do not stretch like this. They will only stretch so much, and that was it. It appears that the denser the felt is, the less stretching that you can do. I think this is a good thing. Fedora