Raiders Fedora

sam2cpa · Post by **sam2cpa** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:53 am

Here is a rather strange article I came across regarding the Raiders Fedora:

http://brokenheartsfixedhere.homestead.com/PCLite.html

prairiejones · Post by **prairiejones** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:43 pm

WHAT!!??

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:45 pm

I can't buy it - why would they make him put a hat on sideways??

IndyK · Post by **IndyK** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:01 pm

Seriously? Is anyone trying to make a Da Vinci mystery out of this?

MonkeyBrains · Post by **MonkeyBrains** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:25 pm

Hey, I'm new to this but showing a 90 degree turn on a concrete block doesn't mean you could wear it on your actual head unless your head is either a REALLY weird shape or you feel no pain, surely?

Colby · Post by **Colby** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:28 pm

It's possible I believe to wear a hat that way although I would consider it made with an EXTREME turn. Although I'm not so sure about the 90 degree theory at all. That doesn't really look great or accurate compared to the "turn" method. The turn method is spot on accurate IMO.

Colby · Post by **Colby** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:32 pm

Although I can see how one would think it looks right since it does kind of make some reverse taper. I just believe you make reverse taper its not really a hat turned sideways.

GrailHunter · Post by **GrailHunter** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:33 pm

If you commission HJ to make several hats for you, and then have the principal actor go through a fitting session, it would be lunacy to think "sod that, turn it 90 degrees and it'll look much better".

Colby · Post by **Colby** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:40 pm

I agree! I hadn't really thought of that. That would seem ridiculous to HJ and most likely look at them as if they were crazy. So I think its definetly NOT 90 degree turned.

Floribama Steve · Post by **Floribama Steve** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:36 pm

I think the "Raiders turn" beats that theory by a mile.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:58 pm

That's our esteemed board member 3thoubucks' webpage. He's one of the BIG theorists (in a Stephen Hawking kind of way, folks) on the Raiders Fedora, and also one of the "Raiders Turn" pioneers.
As for the dimensional cut thing - Richard Swales has described how he personally cut the brim to achieve the look... nothing about wearing a standard Poet sideways...

Swales wrote:To make the hat very distinctive, I shaped the brim into an ovoid to give protection to the eyes and neck, reducing the sides also helped with camera angles. The brim was pulled down to give an explorer/safari look

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:32 pm

I would bet a bottle of Johnny Walker Scotch and a box of donuts that this site is a parody.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:08 pm

Looks like a goof site to me.

Just because one can do extreme things to a hat to get it to look like the movie hat does not mean it was done for the film! We do not know exactly what was done to Ford's hat to give it 'the look'.

The hat we are trying to mimic was made during a certain time, with certain materials and handled and created for a individual. There could be many or no factors that caused Harrison Ford's hat to look so good on him. The answer that is unavailable to us could be very simple.

If we were told there was no turn, wires, stitching, etc. done to his hat, most of us would probably not believe it anyhow!

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:36 pm

Renderking Fisk wrote:I would bet a bottle of Johnny Walker Scotch and a box of donuts that this site is a parody.

Ditto. Although I wouldn't bet a bottle of Johnny Walker. I mean just incase your wrong.

prairiejones · Post by **prairiejones** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:58 am

I just CAN'T turn my Raiders' fedora. - Don't ask.

WE KNOW!!

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:18 am

Renderking Fisk wrote:I would bet a bottle of Johnny Walker Scotch and a box of donuts that this site is a parody.

Dunkin Donuts or Krispy Kreem?;) This does look like an authentic $3K theory page:

http://brokenheartsfixedhere.homestead. ... sTurn.html

If it's a spoof, the creator of that page is most definitively a COW member. Otherwise, I can't see the point of the page...
3thoubucks - let us know if I'll be owing a Booze'n'Pastry-Gram to Mr. Fisk...

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:14 pm

That was $3K first site. He moved it later to http://www.raidershat.com/

I dont' think 90 degree turn is screen accurate. But it is illustrated to show the difference a turn can make in the brim when it does happen.

Pyro.

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:03 pm

Thanks Pryo- Sorry guys but I think everyone needs to slow down abit and remember our lovable hat is slightly different for everyone! I for one, before this website, had already been wearing my hat completely sideways. I have a wide head, from ear to ear, and tried the turn slightly and kept on going until I got the Raiders swoop I wanted and my hat eneded up being completely sideways. Now I don`t believe they did this for the film, I think it was just Harrison Fords head that did it, but in order to get that look, I have to turn it. ( My hat, when worn normally on my Dad, gets the swoop I get when I wear it sideways...#### genes!!!)
So some of the info may be wrong or outdated but that method does work perfectly for some of us wide-heads. You have to imagine the hat being sampled as actually being brown with a nice ribbon and better quality. 3thousbucks actually has pics of my hat on his Raidersturn website under the Allessandria Link. Sounds like a crazy thing to try but not any different than any of the slight turns everyone is doing. I just had to go farther. Wierd yes but please give it some open thought before we just label it. We also have to remember that some of us older guys that have been around along time had to experiment with lots of things and theories before there ever was born a "Raiders Turn (COW version) has been defined".....this theory helped publicize the whole "turn" definition. Most all of you guys hats who have turned your fedoras slightly ascew have some terrific, awesome looking hats with some very accurate brim swoops...unfortunately, some of us need more of a turn!

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:47 am

And remember, guys, in figuring out so many things about the hat as 3thoubucks has done, he is also going to try some things that people aren't going to believe. Not all of his theories have such mainstream acceptance as the basic Raider's Turn. I'll cast the folded sweatband (works for me) and the errant stitch as a couple examples (not sure I buy that one). (And the 'bashed hat/Alden in the closet' was wonderful fun - but he doesn't seem to let it get him down. Cheers, $3k!

)

But the point isn't whether you believe it or not. The point is he's always out there plugging away trying to figure out the secret for you. So go easy on him if you think he's wrong - instead, try helping him out by trying something or sharing an opinion.

And since that page is, as Pyro pointed out, one of his original pages - he may not even favor the 90 degree theory himself anymore. Although I believe on his Raider's Turn page he does talk about varying the amount of turn on a per-person basis to see what works for YOU. Heck, if you have to turn it 90 degrees, but it comes out PERFECT, why should anyone else's opinion matter?

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:46 am

Hi you guys. That was almost my first Indygear post. (Well, I had posted once or twice a couple years previous, but I never really kept up with what was going on here before that.) Yeah, the dimensional cut theory there is what really got me, and the other stuff confirmed the Raiders hat was turned.. I just assumed it was turned too much at first, because of the sweetness of the dimensional cut explaination, plus, the crown on that black wool hat was too low for me to wear it with a top bash, and, there was a nylon filliment in the edge of the brim that kept it from deforming Raiders style.. A few weeks later I got a loose Miller and posted pictures of it turned 45 degeees, and a few months latter got a snug PBBM and got a traditional 1/2 - 2/3 inch turn. Turns out, Gorak posted pics of his 90 degree Alessandria a couple months before my 90 degree post, to great acclaim, but he didn't say that it was turned, untill he responded to my 90 degree post. Asians and Native Americans have rounder heads, and a larger turn is required. Yes, I had read a slight turn would give you a Raiders look, twice, at Indyfan.com years before this 90 degree theory. I don't remember if that was from the same guy, or two different guys. I've searched, but I can't find those posts in the Indyfan.com vault. I didn't get the impression that the front pinch was repositioned in those posts, just that the hat was very slightly turned. Old posts got wiped out here shortly before my 90 degree post. People were aware of a slight turn here, but I'm not sure anyone was front pinching 1/2 to 3/4 off center, on purpose, before I did. If they did, I don't think they ever posted pics to firmly convince gearheads. In other words, I got a lot of skeptisism as to an off center front pinch here, while at the same time some said they were hip to a bit of a turn. No one ever said, "Here's the same picture of my 2/3 inch off center front pinch hat I posted in 2002, which was lost when Indygear was demolished by hackers."

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:27 pm

I don't think the turn was intentional, I think it was just how Ford put on the soft hat. I see it all the time in vintage pics, and with the dimentional brim (Indigenous to Raider) it is very prominant.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:21 pm

Sometimes I think that the "turn" may not be as unique as we think. I've noticed in many westerns hats are turn (more than the Raiders hat) to give them a disheveled, worn out look. This appears quite common in Westerns. So maybe the "turn" isn't an accident, maybe its an old move trick to help make a hat look well used.

prairiejones · Post by **prairiejones** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:07 am

Almost all of the old hats are turned. Check out the old Jimmy Stewart flicks. He usually had some serious turn going on. It was "styling".

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:18 am

I've noticed in many westerns hats are turn (more than the Raiders hat) to give them a disheveled, worn out look. This appears quite common in Westerns. So maybe the "turn" isn't an accident, maybe its an old move trick to help make a hat look well used.

Almost all of the old hats are turned. Check out the old Jimmy Stewart flicks. He usually had some serious turn going on. It was "styling".

You guys may be on to something there. I do know if was important to have your own "look" back in the day. The turn would certainly fit into the scheme of things. Fedora

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:35 am

Hold on a second. Are we talking 'turned' as in removing the hatband, turning the hat & replacing the band?

Do we think Jimmy Stewart, John Wayne, Barton MacLane, Cagney, etc. were turning or having their hats "professionally" turned? Isn't it easier to plop the hat at a rakish angle or knead the hat by hand? That will produce the desired effect. If hats were a common piece of menswear and worn everywhere, wouldn't a hat get a lot of 'hands on' treatment and develop a very worn in 'style'?

Perhaps we are confusing the 'Turning Technique' with wearing a hat at a 'jaunty' or stylish angle?

I have seen many old films. In fact, my wife thinks I am a bit obsessed with movies.

The actors definitely wore their hats in personalized ways. This is not to say that they were turning them. There is simply no proof of this. A soft, floppy, worn in hat at an angle on someone's head is not proof of turning. Or is it? Have I missed something. Can anyone tell if a hat is turned? What are the signs? Did Bogey turn his hat in Treasure of the Sierra Madre?

Do we know that Harrison Ford turned his hat? All we know for certain is doing this mimics the look of Fords hat. We do not know what he did, only what works for us. Let us not forget the lessons we should be learning about block shape, felt quality, hatter, blocking, individual head size & shape, etc. No two heads are the same, and no two people are handling and wearing their hats in the same way.

I accept the fact that turning a hat works to get a look, it does not mean that it was definitely done. I really a surprised to read this is being applied to the past. Hindsight is 20/20 vision and applying modern day techniques and standards is not acceptable to History.

Very few of us truly wear a hat in, most are buying the 'Streets of Cairo' look fresh from a box. Something to consider.

I find it hard to accept blanket statements of how it was done in the old days without proof. Proof is more than "I see it" (therefore it exists). I read too many bad History books were the author expresses his own morals, opinions, and techniques on past peoples and events.

I am hoping to avoid having our younger members running around telling people (especially older folks) how it was done "in the old days" from something they read online.

Thanks. I am stepping off my soapbox now.

prairiejones · Post by **prairiejones** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:50 am

When I say "turned", I mean putting it on your head and then turning the hat. The technique that has been discussed a dozen times in this forum. It does not involve removing or rebuilding anything. Jimmy Stewarts hats look turned to me.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:50 am

I certainly see your point Feraud. I my post I was refering to turning a hat as putinf it on straight and the twisting it an 1" or so off center. IMO this may have been done in the movie industry, particularly Westerns, to give the hat a disheveled worn look.

Here is a pick from "The Shadow Riders" made in 1982.

http://www.automatedculture.com/sam_ell ... x/sr08.jpg

You can clearly see that the hat s being worn off center. The brim is amazingly similar to the Raiders hat. Of course I guess it is possible that since the movie was made in 1982 that the Raiders hat had an influence, but I find it unlikely. My point is that the "turn" may just be a bit of movie magic to make a hat look worn.

More pic of Sam Elliott's hat in "The Shadow Riders."

http://www.automatedculture.com/sam_ell ... pix13.html

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:51 am

Good point Feraud. I will leave the turn in the "it is possible realm" With that said, a really soft thin vintage hat is difficult to get straight on the head as you cannot tell when it is straight unless you look in the mirror. 99.9 per cent of the time, I just put my hat on as I leave the house without looking how it is squared up. Many of the old hats were sometimes worn at a tilt to the side, which would null and void any turn distorting the brim. Heck they even came out with a hat that had one side higher than the other to look like the tilted hat. I have never personally seen one in the old films that looked turned, but then, I really never look at much except the crown style. I have seen the Raiders tight pinch numerous times in many old films, so that particular style that Indy used was not new at all. Been around for years it seems. I think some hat wearers wanted his hat to bespeak his character, his own look. In this sense, it is very conceivable that the turn added a look that some folks liked. I guess we need...................pics!!!!!!!!!!

Fedora

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:04 am

prairiejones wrote:When I say "turned", I mean putting it on your head and then turning the hat. The technique that has been discussed a dozen times in this forum. It does not involve removing or rebuilding anything. Jimmy Stewarts hats look turned to me.

It is possible that I am misreading something. This means his hatband & bow will be off center(in this case side)? That is interesting, I have never noticed it before. I will keep an eye out for this!

J_Weaver wrote:I certainly see your point Feraud. I my post I was refering to turning a hat as putinf it on straight and the twisting it an 1" or so off center. IMO this may have been done in the movie industry, particularly Westerns, to give the hat a disheveled worn look.

Here is a pick from "The Shadow Riders" made in 1982.

http://www.automatedculture.com/sam_ell ... x/sr08.jpg

You can clearly see that the hat s being worn off center. The brim is amazingly similar to the Raiders hat. Of course I guess it is possible that since the movie was made in 1982 that the Raiders hat had an influence, but I find it unlikely. My point is that the "turn" may just be a bit of movie magic to make a hat look worn.

More pic of Sam Elliott's hat in "The Shadow Riders."

http://www.automatedculture.com/sam_ell ... pix13.html

Good pics J.W.! Do you think it looks turned? The first one is possibly turned but the others look like a very worn in and floppy hat.
Btw, love his films!

Fedora wrote:Good point Feraud. I will leave the turn in the "it is possible realm" With that said, a really soft thin vintage hat is difficult to get straight on the head as you cannot tell when it is straight unless you look in the mirror. 99.9 per cent of the time, I just put my hat on as I leave the house without looking how it is squared up. Many of the old hats were sometimes worn at a tilt to the side, which would null and void any turn distorting the brim. Heck they even came out with a hat that had one side higher than the other to look like the tilted hat. I have never personally seen one in the old films that looked turned, but then, I really never look at much except the crown style. I have seen the Raiders tight pinch numerous times in many old films, so that particular style that Indy used was not new at all. Been around for years it seems. I think some hat wearers wanted his hat to bespeak his character, his own look. In this sense, it is very conceivable that the turn added a look that some folks liked. I guess we need...................pics!!!!!!!!!! Fedora

Well said! Putting it in the realm of what is possible is the best way to put it! Anything is possible!

I totally agree with your words on wearing those vintage hats. I have experienced it myself. You cannot be sure if it is straight unless you look in the mirror. This is where the hatband bow could come into play as a guide.

Pics are definitely in order!

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:36 am

Feraud, I think is is turned. The brim is very, very similar to the Raiders hat. You can also see the that tassle and the front pinch are over his right eye instead of centered on his head. In the first pic on the page, the hat isn't "turned", but farther down the page the hat looks quite turned. Also, we must note that the lack of a dimensional cut on the brim makes the dip of the brim less noticable.

The 3rd pic from the top and the 3rd pic from the bottom shows the hat well.

http://www.automatedculture.com/sam_ell ... pix13.html

P.S. If you have an unturned hat, put it on and while looking into a mirror twist it to your right. Note the effect on the brim.

Edit: Ah, all of my post today sound like I'm writing an essay. I guess thats the side effect of mid-term week.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:15 pm

I see your points J_Weaver. Turning a hat will produce the particular brim effect.

Elliot's brim/tassle appears turned in the photos. I totally agree!

I hesitate to say this is a result of any intentional turning of the hat to achieve a swooped brim look. I can easily imagine the hat shifting in the course of filming the movie. That brim looks very soft and floppy. The brim swoops in a particular way. I assume that everyday handling of the hat will produce a swoop in a particular spot on the brim. I feel it is more the result of taking the hat on and off all day rather than an intentional turn that produces the look.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:30 pm

Feraud, I agree that I may be stretching things a bit by saying that it is intentional. I would be nice to be able to talk to some people in the indusry and get their take on the "turn".

There is no doubt though that the "turn" does make a hat look more used and abused.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:24 pm

Turning a hat really does give an instant swoop to the brim.
I would love to hear from those in the know about their treatment of hats in film.

btw, did Nadoolman ever discuss this on the trilogy dvd? I know she spoke of the style of hat and distressing treatment she applied. I wonder what she knows of hat turning....

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:05 pm

Feraud wrote:btw, did Nadoolman ever discuss this on the trilogy dvd? I know she spoke of the style of hat and distressing treatment she applied. I wonder what she knows of hat turning....

She talked about rolling the hat up and sitting on it but nothing about turning it. I'm all for the theory about turning being an accident when we can see that the front pinch is also off center. (Like the pics I posted) But what about when the hat is bashed off center like the Raiders hat? It seems like it has to have been done on purpose. I don't see how a front pinch (particularly one as tight as the Raiders) could work itself nearly an in off center without help.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:14 pm

I own and occasionally wear a late 40's/early 50's Borsalino. It has always had an off center bash/front dents right out of the box....so much so, I was even asked by a member here if I was a practioneer of the 'turn method'. I am not. The hat was just bashed off center right from the factory, and remains so, no matter what I try and do to center it correctly. So no...you do not necessarily have to do anything to a thin felt hat to have off center bashes OR front dents, or at least that's been my experience to date.

Regards! Michaelson

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:20 pm

Thanks for the info Michaelson! I guess if its your job to bash hats all day long every now and then your gonna get one off center.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:25 pm

Michaelson wrote:I own and occasionally wear a late 40's/early 50's Borsalino. It has always had an off center bash/front dents right out of the box....so much so, I was even asked by a member here if I was a practioneer of the 'turn method'. I am not. The hat was just bashed off center right from the factory, and remains so, no matter what I try and do to center it correctly. So no...you do not necessarily have to do anything to a thin felt hat to have off center bashes OR front dents, or at least that's been my experience to date.

Regards! Michaelson

Very interesting. I thought this might be a characteristic of older/quality hats. Reading that makes me feel the actors & regular folk were not necessarily intentionally turning thier hats but either receiving them that way or experiencing 'slippage'. For lack of a better word....

It seems to me that it is one thing to have a hat turn on your head but another thing entirely to intentionally do it! Though the net result is the same, the way of getting there is different!

Sorry to spend the day arguing semantics....

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:27 pm

J_Weaver wrote:Thanks for the info Michaelson! I guess if its your job to bash hats all day long every now and then your gonna get one off center.

Yep!

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:11 am

The hat was probably turned on purpose, because in the first scenes shot, the dock scene and the taruantula scene, the hat wasn't turned yet. Here's the hat before and after it was turned in the cave.

Also, I put a regular front pinch in my hat before I pinched it off center, and you can see where it used to be. The same evidence is on the Raiders hat.

You can see that my old front pinch is two pinches right next to each other, forming a lump. (I just moved it a little to get it closer to the center.) The same lump is there on the Raiders hat. Whoever put the first front pinch in it, adjusted it a bit also. ============ Hats turned in "Seabiscuit" viewtopic.php?t=6406&highlight=seabiscuit

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:42 am

Got to admit, $3K, I completely believe that the hat was pinched before turning. It looks pretty darn obvious from those pics. And I saw the same thing in my cheap hat, too, when I did that. (Keep it up, eh?;))