Laser Disk owners sound off (bag strap discussion)

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:07 pm

Who's got Raiders on Laser Disk and can they do screen captures from it?

I'd like to compair DVD detail vs. Laserdisk and see if there was a loss of detail from LD to DVD. (such as being able to see grooves in the bag strap on LD where on DVD you really can't tell positively) I can give you a few scenes to check if anyone is able. (or you can do your own research if you want)

Indiana Williams · Post by **Indiana Williams** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:24 pm

Whats a Laser Disc?

-Joe

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:27 pm

I have the trilogy on laser disc and on dvd. I can not, however, do screen grabs.

While the resolution of laser disc and dvd are very comparable, Lowry Digital Images cleaned up over 970,000 frames for the dvd release of Raiders. The laser disc release was several years before the dvd release, and while the print may have been in better shape at that time, I do not recall such a massive restoration being done prior to the laser disc release.

I understand that you are trying to get a better look at the strap to answer some gear questions, but I really think that the dvd version is going to be the best version of Raiders that we have available. Granted, this is my opinion before doing a side by side comparison of the two.

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:31 pm

That's my worry is the "clean up". My theory is that in that clean up small details (like the strap groves) digitally got removed or reduced as noise/dirt/scratches etc.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:32 pm

Indiana Williams wrote:Whats a Laser Disc?
-Joe

If you knew the answer to that question, you would have been watching dvd quality video in your home back in 1980 instead of having to wait for them to invent dvd in the late 1990's.

Two additional decades of home theater bliss.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:35 pm

IndyDoc, Good point. If you have the running time on dvd of a couple spots that you would like to check, I'll do an A/B test to look and see if I can notice a difference.

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:36 pm

You don't have a computer with a video capture card in that mega theatre do you Bufflehead?

Edit: Ok, I'll check some times.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:39 pm

I'm a lot like Indy with that "fly yes, land no" statement. With me it is, "home theater yes, computers no".

Indiana Williams · Post by **Indiana Williams** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:40 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote:
Indiana Williams wrote:Whats a Laser Disc?
-Joe
If you knew the answer to that question, you would have been watching dvd quality video in your home back in 1980 instead of having to wait for them to invent dvd in the late 1990's. Two additional decades of home theater bliss.

I know what laser discs are

, I never liked them cause of there size and cause you had to flip them over in the middle of a movie, so I had no problem watching Indy on VHS,besides I mainly bought the DVD set for the extras.

- Joe

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:42 pm

Indiana Williams wrote:...besides I mainly bought the DVD set for the extras.
- Joe

Which was soarly missing a commentary track! :evil:

Indiana Williams · Post by **Indiana Williams** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:45 pm

IndyDoc wrote:
Indiana Williams wrote:...besides I mainly bought the DVD set for the extras.
- Joe
Which was soarly missing a commentary track! :evil:

Yeah, I was really suprised when I didnt find a commentary track

- Joe

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:51 pm

Joe,

I was in a video store in the early 1990's browsing through the laser discs and a couple walked in and the guy immediately said, "look honey, they have all these movie soundtracks on records".

With the size of display devices today, the resolution of vhs is totally inadequate. On a really large display, watching vhs is almost painful. I like the term coined by director James Cameron, crapvision vhs. He doesn't leave any doubt what he thinks of the format.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:57 pm

I have the Raiders laser and it was the first test disc (1992, I believe) that LFL did in THX. I think the sound on my laserdisc is FAR superior of that on the dvd. I hear that only if you have top quality components are you able to distinguish a real difference in picture quality. My laser looks plenty good to me, honestly.

Dre · Post by **Dre** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:59 pm

is laserdisc actually as good as dvd quality? i never really looked into it but always assumed dvd was better.

Indiana Williams · Post by **Indiana Williams** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:01 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote:With the size of display devices today, the resolution of vhs is totally inadequate.

True, but until recently I only owned the trilogy on VHS and watched it on my 27in RCA and I had no complaints.
- Joe

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:25 pm

Dre wrote:is laserdisc actually as good as dvd quality? i never really looked into it but always assumed dvd was better.

A progresive scan dvd player will look better, but otherwise they are pretty close.

The first laser disc released in dolby digital sound was Clear and Present Danger in 1995.

The first THX certified laser disc was James Cameron's The Abyss in 1993.

Unfortunately, the 1992 laser disc release of Raiders was neither.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:40 pm

The first THX certified laser disc was James Cameron's The Abyss in 1993.

Unfortunately, the 1992 laser disc release of Raiders was neither.

I've read in the past and also seen on several ebay auctions over the past 10 years that the Raiders laserdisc release was released in THX, although not labeled as so. You did say The Abyss was the first 'certified' THX release which technically COULD make Raiders the first 'uncertified' release. It is certainly possible that is was a test for The Abyss. Perhaps they were fooling around with Raiders to test out the sound production and just went ahead with the whole film.
You can see a slightly better quility in picture on the dvd, but it's not much. The sound is a different thing though. I played my laser for Minnesota and his wife when they were over and they agreed there was a major difference. The laser has a much more full sound, not as forced as the dvd.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:00 am

agent5 wrote:
The first THX certified laser disc was James Cameron's The Abyss in 1993.

Unfortunately, the 1992 laser disc release of Raiders was neither.
I've read in the past and also seen on several ebay auctions over the past 10 years that the Raiders laserdisc release was released in THX, although not labeled as so. You did say The Abyss was the first 'certified' THX release which technically COULD make Raiders the first 'uncertified' release. It is certainly possible that is was a test for The Abyss. Perhaps they were fooling around with Raiders to test out the sound production and just went ahead with the whole film.
You can see a slightly better quility in picture on the dvd, but it's not much. The sound is a different thing though. I played my laser for Minnesota and his wife when they were over and they agreed there was a major difference. The laser has a much more full sound, not as forced as the dvd.

THX as it applies to laser disc and dvd is a certfication program only. It simply means that THX has certified that the production of that release was done to a certain set of specifications developed by THX. Other engineers are perfectly capable of producing outstanding movie releases with out being supervised by THX. It was simply an effort to help standardize the industry.

THX is not a "TYPE" of movie sound. Dolby Digital is a type of movie sound. The 1992 laser disc release of Raiders was a matrixed surround soundtrack. This means that the original five tracks of the dolby soundtrack of the film was "matrixed" or combined into a two channel stereo track.

This stereo track is then decoded into five channels by a decoder in your home gear upon playback. There is inherently blead over so to speak, between channels during this encoding and decoding process.

Dolby Digital sound is a discrete digital format. It has 5.1 channels of discrete digital sound. It contains five full range channels and one Low Frequency Effects Channel, thus the 5.1 designation.

Discrete digital sound means that the sound is in digital form and each channel is kept completely separate throughout the entire mixing and mastering process and is recorded completely separate on your disc. The channels are separate all through the chain and are never mixed together.

The Raiders dvd was in discrete digital sound and was technically far superior to the matrixed surround track of the laser disc release. If when comparing the two soundtracks, the sound levels were not precisely calibrated, this could account for someone mistakenly preferring the inferior soundtrack.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:12 am

While I am on the subject of THX....

In the beginning, THX was an attempt to standardize the sound in commercial movie theaters which at the time was usually pretty horrible. It set a standard for commercial movie theaters as far as things like the slope of the floor, how much background noise was allowed to blead over from the adjacent movie theater, how loud the air conditioning could be inside the theater, the total allowable background noise, etc. It was an effort to standardize all theaters that were certified by THX so that it would sound the same anywhere you went to see a movie if you went to a THX certified theater.

Even then, theaters that were THX certified had to pay Lucasfilm a licensing fee. With the advent of home theater, THX certification spead to the home. At first it was helpful in assuring that all of the components that you bought would work well together.

It always provided a THX reference level that helped you to calibrate your speaker levels with a sound pressure level meter. It was not necessary, but it was convenient.

Today this is almost not needed at all, as even some of the cheapest Japanese receivers come with a microphone that the receiver uses and sends out a test signal and listens to the test signal on this microphone and then adjusts itself to the acoustics of the room it is in.

THX then began to certify laser disc releases and then dvd releases. The studio that produced the movies had to pay a licensing fee to have their releases THX certified.

THX now certifies just about anything as it has become a marketing ploy that has generated a lot of money for Lucasfilm. I am eagerly awaiting the announcement that THX has certified a certain brand of popcorn as the best popcorn to eat while watching a movie. Don't laugh, if a popcorn company wanted to pay the licensing fee, THX would certify it. The best thing about THX today, is the cool sounding trailers that they put on the beginning of a THX certified movie.

In the home theater gear, at first there was just one THX certification. As Lucasfilm began to get greedier, they decided to offer two levels of THX certification. What used to be known as simply THX certified, now became known as THX Ultra. And all of the components that were not able to pass the previous THX standards, but the company really wanted to pay Lucasfilm, could now have their gear certified as THX Select.

It was kind of like the USDA certifying beef as either USDA Prime or USDA Select. THX Select basicly means that THX certifies that the gear you bought is not as good as the gear that the guy bought that says THX Ultra on it. Like I really need them to tell me that?

What does all of this talk of THX have to do with Indygear? It just shows that Lucas has accumulated enough money from these licensing fees that he could afford to go ahead and get Indy IV into production and make it a super whombat of a great movie.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:53 am

Dre wrote:is laserdisc actually as good as dvd quality? i never really looked into it but always assumed dvd was better.

Dre,

To give you a better answer, yes, laser disc is a very high quality video format. It is fairly equal to dvd. However, it is an older technology that is almost a dead format today. It is almost impossible to find any store that would still sell a laser disc. There is currently only one company that even still makes a laser disc player and that is Pioneer. As far as I know, they haven't stopped production, yet.

In it's day it was the best video avalable to early odopters of home theater. It provided me with two decades of high quality video and sound in my home that the majority of people are only now realizing due to affordable surround sound and dvd.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:55 am

Is it normal that i never saw a laserdisk but only heard about them?

about the audio format... i still prefer Stereo sound instead of 5.1

Indiana Williams · Post by **Indiana Williams** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:17 am

erri_wan wrote:Is it normal that i never saw a laserdisk but only heard about them?

about the audio format... i still prefer Stereo sound instead of 5.1

Ive only seen a few movies on laser disc, i use to prefer stereo to 5.1 until I watched the Indy movies at my unlce's house, who has a 60in Ultravision TV and a Bose system.so now i looking around for a good 5.1 system for my 27in RCA.
-Joe

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:22 am

Now we know what Buffleheads REAL hobby is!!!

Thanks. That was quite an informative post, sir.

JAN · Post by **JAN** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:28 am

laser disc is a very high quality video format. It is fairly equal to dvd

According to encyclopedias VHS runs in a resolution on 300 x 360 pixels,
Laserdisc on 544 x 480 and DVD on 720 x 576.

So DVD´s got 40% more pixels than Laserdisc - that has got to be noticable!

Best regards

JAN

Indiana Williams · Post by **Indiana Williams** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:28 am

agent5 wrote:Now we know what Buffleheads REAL hobby is!!! Thanks. That was quite an informative post, sir.

yeah, he should open up his own electronics store.he definetly knows his stuff.
- Joe

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:26 am

I occasionally find laser disc's in antique stores when my wife and I are prowling the backroads of Tennessee. I actually found a copy of Last Crusade in a pile of discs, and the majority of the discs were 5 to 10 dollars. They wanted $50 for the dang thing!

Needless to say, it's still in the box at the store. I even have a VERY nice new in the box player at the house, and very few discs to play on it.

Regards! Michaelson

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:00 pm

Vhs=240 lines of resolution
Laser disc=425 lines of resolution
dvd=480 lines of resolution

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:26 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote:IndyDoc, Good point. If you have the running time on dvd of a couple spots that you would like to check, I'll do an A/B test to look and see if I can notice a difference.

Finally remember to get some times for you to check.

6m:28s
6:33
7:26-27
1:18:13
1:18:23-24
All are looking for grooves in the bag strap. The last one at 1:18:24 frame 1 (flying wing fight) is a pretty clear groove even on the DVD. You can frame by frame around those areas also to find the clearest shots (when the strap stops moving). There's also some good spots in the Cairo fight and chase, but I didn't list them as there's enogh above.

Mr. Jones · Post by **Mr. Jones** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:19 pm

Some LD and other old school formats

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:00 am

I really have never seen those things!!!

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:57 am

I LEARNED on most of that equipment.

Boy, those reel to reel video recorders were a bear to work, especially with the lousy single tube cameras we had in the day. You had to have a TON of light to light up a scene, and still only got a grainy black and white picture. Sometimes the 'good old days' are not worth revisiting!

High regards!~ Michaelson

Don't Call Me Junior · Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:10 am

Michaelson, the way people talk about your age I would have guessed you started out with cave paintings.

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:23 am

After fiddling with my editing soft and graphics soft I cannot find any proof for grooves on the leather strap here are a few screenshots - inverted to show any anomolies in the strap but as you can see there is no shadow or clearly identified groove structure on any. I have also played around with filtering etc t no avail the grooves just aren't there on these shots.

regards,

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:24 am

The last pic of your seems to be quite clear! where does it come from? I mean, from what scene?

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:30 am

the tent scene as he grabs marion....

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:06 am

Harrison_Davies wrote:the tent scene as he grabs marion....

Well from that clear picture we can see that there are no grooves but we should also keep in mind that a lot of times Harrison Ford used to carry the bag reversed. In that case the grooves wouldnt be visible.
Could you confirm what side is the bag carried in that scene?

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:13 am

on the left - the usual side...I will keep looking....

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:47 am

Okay this shot shows both sides of the strap - no grooves.

regards,

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:09 pm

Did you see my post above with times to look at in it? (for Bufflehead to check on LD but you can use them on DVD too) Check the ones that are of the flying wing fight. Those are the clearest shot of grooves I have found. Many of the others (some that you have shown) are iffy whether they are there or are just a shadow of the cupped edge.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:13 pm

Don't Call Me Junior wrote:Michaelson, the way people talk about your age I would have guessed you started out with cave paintings.

In the world of media production and technology....it moves so fast now, I FEEL like I started with cave painting!

Regards! Michaelson

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:17 pm

those times don't seem to be matching up with my player...sorry

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:19 pm

Hmm. Well look at the fight under the wing. Indy gets punched several times and the camera is very close. Frame though those areas.

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:43 pm

Hi,

Again I see no grooves, been right through the fight scene and discovered extras and crew members saying hello in the cockpit window but no grooves.

Regards,

Don't Call Me Junior · Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:30 am

Maybe it's just my imagination but in some of those grabs it looks like the strap could have grooves in it. If they are there it looks like they are very shallow and maybe just don't show up well on film. I will try myself to locate a shot that shows any hard evidence of their existence.

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:17 am

If you do get a grab, try to invert the picture which woudl show any slight variation on form or shadow. Also the find edges filter is good for checking.

Regards,

Don't Call Me Junior · Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:14 pm

I saw a lot of ifs and maybes but nothing I felt was evidence enough. In particular there was a couple of shots in the opening temple scene, the one that sticks out to me was when Ford gives the line "stay out of the light". There were some others also at about the same camera distance where there appears there could be some shallow groves rathar close to the edges. Unfortunately most of the close up shots appear to show the opposite. The scene in the tent where he grabs Marion does appear to be the best shot of the strap and pretty clearly shows no grooves, but to me it looks like the back face of the strap. I think the second best shot of it could be when they are taking cover after emerging from the well of souls but before the flying wing fight. Again, there doesn't appear to really be any grooves. All this makes me wonder where the info came from that the strap had grooves in the first place.

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:20 pm

I think someone made a batch with grooves by mistake and thought they'd start a rumor to sell them hahaha...Who knows...

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:36 pm

With HDs own teqnique and screen grab. Looks like theres a line going all the way down the right side and something on the left. I think this is one of the exact frames I was refering to when I was talking about the flying wing fight.
In his "beging for money" grab above, the inverted version looks like there's a line too.

I'll try to get more if I have time.

BTW, the point of this thread was to compair the DVD to LD versions and see if there was any more detail in the LD that the digital "cleaning" of the DVD erased, not to find or disprove grooves. It was just a detail that I think has possibly gotten removed as a "scratch". I have a thread on my theory some where and it's explained in this one too. I have another lost detail in the other thread though. But we can continue that if you like (or start a new thread about it).

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:01 pm

Last one from me - An official publicity photo...couldn't be any clearer in my opinion.

Of course I'm not out to disprove anything, just trying to assist in screen accuracy.

BTW what do you mean "Begging for money"?

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:13 pm

The screen shot you took that's just before he tosses coins to get rid of the "begars".

I wish WinDVD captured at full screen size. It's pretty easy to see that groove (or something like it) in the picture of yours that I inverted. (along the right edge)