Screen Accurate Whip

[DavieM]

Here's one to get some good discussion going on here (especially among you whip makers) Who currently makes the most "screen accurate" indy bullwhip?

I know that DM was the maker of he day but his style has changed quite a bit since then.

[ecwhips]

This is another topic along with whip care, that has been beaten to death. Just search the archives here and you'll find that same thread a bunch of times.

Jim

[DavieM]

Thanks Jim but I'm looking for any new and up to date views anyone might have on the topic

[ecwhips]

Then I guess it depends on what screen accurate means. Which movie look are you going for, and from which scene? As an example, depending on which scene you're watching in Raiders, it could be any one of a number of different whips that were used. And each one of those whips has its own character to it. You can definitely see the change in the whip's details from Raiders to Last Crusade, if you look carefully. Most whip makers have their own style, where you can usually tell which whip maker made the whip the details. By details I mean length of the diamond braid on the handle and where the decorative knot is placed; size of the knob on the butt end; width of the strands, etc. While those minor details may differ from the ones on the screen, a good whipmaker should be able to make you a whip that looks pretty close to what you're after if you give them the details. Maybe even send along some screen shots, if you have them.

Jim

[Shawnkara]

Davie,
Jim's right, it's all in the details of what you want. Look a few threads down on the Bullwhip section. Winrich just did a replica Morgan that's pretty ###.n nice.

[agent5]

Dave Morgan flat out refuses to make the whips as they were in the films any longer. He moves the turkshead knot down to about (correct me if I'm wrong here) a little over 5" where in the films they were at about 8", giving the appearance of a longer handle. He said he made the changes to better increase the quality and handling of the whips and he is absolutely correct. My DM with the current handle construction just has an overall better feel in my hands and I feel alot more in control of the whip. I haven't handled too many earlier Morgans so I can't recall to compare.

This is the last DM made that will look as they did in the films. It's still not 100% as he used to make the turkshead knot a little thicker, but it's as close as you're going to get anymore.

He told me that if they ask him to do Indy 4 and they ask him to move the knot up to make them look exactly as they did before, he said he'd refuse the enitre order because he was not going to let anything take away from the integrity of the work.

That's pretty hardcore.

[Ark Hunter]

He's apparently tired of money and it boars him.

[thefish]

Morgan is a whipmaker, not a propmaster. Above and beyond that, he's an engineer. And if feel you've improved on a design, you don't go back to something that doesn't work as well when you can do it better just as easily.

He has personal standards. He won't go back to a whip that he feels is an "inferior design," even if it's requested, just like if you call to order a whip, and you let on that you might be interested in using it for S&M purposes, he WILL hang up on you, (heard this from others. Not from personal experience. Honest! I've never even CONSIDERED buying a new Morgan!)

He was making whips for Hollywood stunt folks long before Indiana Jones, and I don't think at his age, and with his career, he particularly cares WHAT Hollywood wants. He's older than dirt, and will probably outlast Hollywood anyway, (when the Apocalypse comes, it will just be cockroaches, Volkswagen Beetles, Hostess Twinkies, Keith Richards, and Dave Morgan. Not necessarily in that order.)

In all honesty, Hollywood won't notice the different design, anyway. Spielberg and Lucas can't tell the difference between an old design Morgan and a new one. They won't care. Only us rabid fans will notice, (I count myself in that. I'm not as good with Indygear, but I can name countless differences in the Masamune swords between "Highlander"s 1-4!)

Now, I personally prefer longer handles on whips. I've cracked a couple Morgans, and I honestly don't care too much for them. Far too much money for something I don't care that much for. I prefer Strain whips. I know others who don't care as much for Strain whips. Different strokes for different folks. But I agree with Mr. Morgan's decisions about maintaining his current design. It's not about the money with him, (though you wouldn't know it from his prices,) and I respect that.

Just my two pesos
-Dan

[Ark Hunter]

In all honesty, Hollywood won't notice the different design, anyway. Spielberg and Lucas can't tell the difference between an old design Morgan and a new one. They won't care. Only us rabid fans will notice, (I count myself in that. I'm not as good with Indygear, but I can name countless differences in the Masamune swords between "Highlander"s 1-4!)
-Dan

I agree that they won't notice. If they didn't bother to keep other little details of Indy's gear exact, they won't mind a little variation in the whip design.

[agent5]

Morgan is a whipmaker, not a propmaster. Above and beyond that, he's an engineer. And if feel you've improved on a design, you don't go back to something that doesn't work as well when you can do it better just as easily.

He has personal standards. He won't go back to a whip that he feels is an "inferior design," even if it's requested, just like if you call to order a whip, and you let on that you might be interested in using it for S&M purposes, he WILL hang up on you, (heard this from others. Not from personal experience. Honest! I've never even CONSIDERED buying a new Morgan!)

Fish,
You must've spoken to him too. This is pretty much what he told me, word for word. He said he consistantly wants to make the same product and straying from that would only downgrade his work ethic, whichhe is VERY concerned about. Now, as far as the S&M thing, I think it's WAAAAAAAY too conservative on his part to turn down orders if he knows you're going to be doing S&M stuff with the whip. Why in the he!! would it matter to him what you're doing with it? Not his problem to worry about it in the least. He's not selling lifestyles, he's selling a product. Not my lifestyle but it's also not my place to judge and certainly not his place either.
On another note, he was an incredibly kind man when he wasn't being so stubborn. Lots of history there which he is more than happy to take time out of his day to discuss with total strangers. A very nice guy.

[IndyK]

I'm not really a "whip-man" but when I finally decided to go for the bullwhip, the last piece of gear I needed (apart from the gun that is) I contacted a few members in here and asked for advice on the screen-accurate issue. It was a difficult decision, especially since DM is the "original", but I decided to go for the Strain whip. I told Joe that I really didn't know anything about whips and all I was looking for was a whip that would be a real "Raiders-whip". He told me, that the original hide in tan was not available at the moment, but he was using a hide with a color that from the beginning looked more like the ones used in the film, having allready been exposed to light for some years. I beleive he called the color "saddle".

And here's the beauty. It arrived a few days ago and just the feel of the whip has allready made me more interested in whips, so all I need now is to break it in and a whole lot of practise.
I think it looks very Indy'sh.

[thefish]

Sayeth Agent 5

Now, as far as the S&M thing, I think it's WAAAAAAAY too conservative on his part to turn down orders if he knows you're going to be doing S&M stuff with the whip. Why in the he!! would it matter to him what you're doing with it? Not his problem to worry about it in the least. He's not selling lifestyles, he's selling a product. Not my lifestyle but it's also not my place to judge and certainly not his place either.

Just my observation, and certainly not an attack on A5, nor truly a defence of Morgan. Just my observation of what goes through Morgan's head, based on secondhand information. I don't know the man, so take it for what it's worth:

Morgan is something of a throwback to a different time. When his interest in bullwhips started, (probably as a boy,) they were strictly considered a cowyboy tool. Folks like Lash Larue and Zorro were who were the icons associated with bullwhips, (and served as Lucas's inspiration for Indiana Jones.) This was in the 1930s-50s. In the 50s and 60s the S&M subculture imagery began to to make its way into the popular culture image. The bullwhip was co-opted then.

Today, we've got Indy and again Zorro, (once again, throwbacks to the 40's and 50's) but most modern references are fetishized; Biggest example of course, being Catwoman, (both Pfeiffer and Berry.) Everything else is dominatrix-imagery or "Bad Guys with Bad Whips" like in the Rock/Chris Walken action pic, "The Rundown," (with whips by our very own Paul "Midwestwhips" Nolan.)

There is a movement out there now, (through folks like world record holder, and whip performer, Chris "Canasta" Camp, writer Rich Hoffman, and others in the WWAC,) to promote a positive, "family friendly" image of the whip and whip artists. I include myself in this category, (and am trying to make my own contribution in my own particular way, but more on that at a later date.)

Morgan is taking what he considers a "High Road" on this as well, and is doing the same thing in his own way. Weak analogy here: It's like tobacco companies and drug dealers claiming that they're not the problem because people come to THEM to buy their products. It's about personal choice and responsibility. Like Pagey said about Morgan, it's not about the money. It's about personal choices. If you don't like his business practices, or can't abide by his requests, don't solicit business from him. Now I don't agree with this particular business practice, (and I don't plan on buying a whip from him, for reasons I've already mentioned in the previous post,) but I respect him for standing behind his personal values, even at the cost of losing business.

And to further clarify my stance on the "Positive Image of Bullwhips." I'm not railing against that image. I really don't care what choose to do in privacy. I just want to see a "Family Friendly" view of them in the public eye as well. It's great physical, mental, and even spiritual excercise, (when looked at from a Zen perspective.) I also reguarly practice with, and exchange ideas and techniques with people who use them for S&M purposes. I'm just not interested in that aspect of the bullwhip.

But let's face it, if you REALLY want to learn true control and precision, who would you trust more: a person who throws whips at people's skin without crippling them, or a person who throws whips at playing cards and styrofoam cups? Choice to me is pretty clear.

Anyway, that's enough from me. Just my....hmmm...let's see....compound normal word count with regular 2 cents price...add in inflation and VAT....Shipping and handling....OK. That's just my $20!

Thanks for reading this far.

-Dan

P.S. IndyK You have chosen....wisely. Strain makes one of the nicest whips out there...hands down. If this is your first whip, you're spoiled for life. Crack it with pride!

-D

[agent5]

Now I don't agree with this particular business practice, but I respect him for standing behind his personal values, even at the cost of losing business.

That is completely my bottom line on Morgan too. It's exactly how I feel.

He turned me down FLAT when I asked him to make me a .455 with the handle configuration in the films. He gave me his integrity speach and turned me down. We talked for a bit and he told me that he made his last of the special order whips with the handle like that for a guy a few months back who wanted two of them. He said after that he'd never do them again. That was that. Although I was bummed about not being able to get the whip I wanted, I could not help but feel total respect for him as an artist. He truely stands behind the quality of his work more than anything. Now, price...is another matter.
I did eventually hook up with the guy who bought the last two whips mentioned above and he sold me one of the two as seen in the pic.

[Alabama Jones]

IndyK, good choice!

I got a Strain just like that in 10' (I'm guessing yours an 8 footer).

I also think the "saddle" color looks more like the whips in the film.

Get crackin, you're goin to love it.

[Sergei]

Well said, "thefish". Bravo... Also... good looking Strain. I never saw or handled a Strain I didn't like. Mr. Strain is a machine. And he hates hearing that comment, because there's a (false) myth, that he is using one to be so consistenly skillful.

[winrichwhips]

IMHO Joe Strain is the best American-style bullwhip maker, period, and if someone buys a whip from him instead of me I actually don't feel bad

When I open it up to just any bullwhip style, Russel Schultz has my vote for 'best bullwhip' just because they handle so well. I like whips with a flow to them, and I guess I never handled a Strain that flowed for me. Maybe a comparision would be like, Joe Strain's are like Ruger Vaqueros and Russel's are more like Colt Peacemakers. Both work well, but one has just a little more elegance than the other.

As far as 'screen accurate' goes, about the only Morgan that 'does it for me' is the one pictured in his book, the 455 supplied for the films. I think that one looks absolutely perfect. No other whip, by any maker, including Morgan, is as Indy-esque as that one, at least not to me. Of course, it's hard enough to ever make one whip exactly like another (if not impossible) but also whips seem to look a lot better in pictures. That's probably because is simplifies the whip into a 2 dimensional object instead of a real, 3-D object, so there's fewer things that someone like me or Paul Nolan could nit-pick about.

-Adam, www.winrichwhips.com

[Darth V.A.D.E.R]

Nice whip IndyK nice whip
Darth

[Shawnkara]

As to the S&M issue, I think it's partially Morgan's old school value system and partially a safety concern. S&M whips are typically those fruity little "cat o' nine tails" made from craft store leather. Anyone that actually WANTS to be hit by a BULLWHIP, no matter how much they love pain, is a moron.

[agent5]

Anyone that actually WANTS to be hit by a BULLWHIP, no matter how much they love pain, is a moron.

No, they're just moron's to you. Now, I'm not in the least into this, but to call them moron's because they choose to act in a manner you may find strange is not good. It may be comfortable and even enlightening to them. Again, I don't understand the behaviour, but it's not for me to understand if I'm not into it. I just ignore those who are and let them go on their painful, but pleasureable way.

[Bufflehead Jones]

As to the S&M issue, I think it's partially Morgan's old school value system and partially a safety concern. S&M whips are typically those fruity little "cat o' nine tails" made from craft store leather. Anyone that actually WANTS to be hit by a BULLWHIP, no matter how much they love pain, is a moron.

I am with Shawnkara on this one. I think of a small whip when I think of using one for S&M. An eight or ten foot David Morgan would take flesh off of the carcass. That's a little more S than M, I would say.

[thefish]

Most of them use 4-6 foot whips only. Nothing huge. And they use the follow through of the crack, (after the whip has spent all of it's energy,) to contact skin. That's not AS bad with a short whip, but still, that's how you cut targets as well... No thanks... I'll stick with styrofoam cups and playing cards. But, I stand by my original post that if you want to learn SERIOUS control where you hit what you're aiming for 10 out of 10 times. These people know.

Though, about a year ago, I did run into a pretty creepy guy at a SCA event in Western Ohio, who I'm pretty sure was "In THAT Scene" who was swinging around a 14' shot loaded Kangaroo monster. Now Canasta and Adam Winrich could have probably made this thing dance the calypso, but this guy was about 2 seconds from herniating himself or giving himself a good scar, (possibly both.)

All this slob can manage is doing figure 8's over his head repeatedly, and he can only do them one handed, so he's sweating like crazy, wheezing, and just has NO form or control.

I'm there with my little 6' 8 plait cowhide, (from RacerX, the only whip I had a the time, GREAT little whip that I've since passed on to someone else who's just learning.) It had LOST IT'S POPPER, and I'm STILL making more noise that he is, and I'm doing switch-off's between hands and combinations.

It was very "Duelling Banjos" for a while. We drew a crowd, there were applause, and questions, and it was just plain FUN. (I admit it! I'm a show off!)

If it wasn't for the high gas prices, I'd go back to that event this year with my bag now full of Strain, Winrich and Jarrell goodness! I won the "duel", but that was nothing! I'm lightyears better now, and I've got more toys! I want a rematch!

Anyway...We WERE talking about screen accurate whips, weren't we?

-Dan

[jerryrwm]

As to the S&M issue, I think it's partially Morgan's old school value system and partially a safety concern. S&M whips are typically those fruity little "cat o' nine tails" made from craft store leather. Anyone that actually WANTS to be hit by a BULLWHIP, no matter how much they love pain, is a moron.

I am with Shawnkara on this one. I think of a small whip when I think of using one for S&M. An eight or ten foot David Morgan would take flesh off of the carcass. That's a little more S than M, I would say.

So which whip travels faster when the popper cracks? The small whip or the Morgan 8 or 10. And a short whip will remove hide also.

As in anything, it goes back to the skill of the user. Some should look at John & Vi Brady's video. Speed grace and accuracy. (If she can cut a lifesaver of of his tingue, I'd say she is pretty accurate.) Or watch Leonard Wheatley, deceased whipmaker as he takes a cigarette butt from between his assistants fingers. And I believe Sebastian did the same thing for a TV interview.

Be as screen accurate as you can, but learn to be accurate and it will be that much more impressive.

Jerry

[Bufflehead Jones]

Most of them use 4-6 foot whips only. Nothing huge. And they use the follow through of the crack, (after the whip has spent all of it's energy,) to contact skin.

I always duck, hoping the follow through doesn't contact MY skin.

[thefish]

Of course you duck! That's what Buffleheads do!

-Dan

[mechinyun]

As to the S&M issue, I think it's partially Morgan's old school value system and partially a safety concern. S&M whips are typically those fruity little "cat o' nine tails" made from craft store leather. Anyone that actually WANTS to be hit by a BULLWHIP, no matter how much they love pain, is a moron.

LOL!!! True.