The Grey/Brown hat : one more serious question?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:24 pm

I'm not debating what I or anyone else thinks is the true color of the hat, nor do I want this thread to turn into a repeat discussion on the subject, but I thought of something today that I don't think was brought up before.

Has anyone thought to look up vintage HJ's to see if they had hat's made in a similar color in the same time frame they made the hats for Raiders? I'd assume that they had to have a line of hats in the same color, right? Especially since they're not a custom hat shop.

Do they maybe have old catalogs that might show old hats? It may be a longshot, but perhaps they have older hats in a basement or warehouse or somewhere. I knwo that dealing with HJ on this subject matter would most likely not be easy either. I'm just trying to figure out a way we can find this out for real without just guessing and that idea came to mind. Way I see it, we can look at screen caps and guess all day, but all it did was separate us like Democrats and Republicans. I thought a change of approach was necessary/

I know someone had a vintage HJ ad somewhere at one time. Something like this could get us on the right track.
I thought ( i may be wrong) I heard Fedora mention that he may have tracked down the felt supplier that HJ used to use back in the late 70's, early 80's. That would definitely be a starting point for networking.

Anyone else have any serious ideas?

Post by **Mike** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:00 pm

agent5 wrote:but all it did was separate us like Democrats and Republicans.

Some might even say Romulans and Klingons.

Good point, 5. Though we do have word from, I believe, Swales a catalog, or other evidence may help cement that word.

That said, lets keep this civil people.

Mike

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:07 pm

I have one buried in one of my boxes at home in my garage. I have to dig something else out for someone, so hopefully I'll get around to it this weekend.

That said, one could also argue the fact that there could be differences in the color due to the printing process of the catalog, as folks have argued the differences in appearance of color on a monitor. I'd say it would be closer in print, but coming from a professional printing background as I do, the color would only be as good as the printer who mixed the ink for the press run and his eye to color when comparing to a draft copy and printers color palate, so we'll have to accept even this evidence with a grain of salt.

I'll try and find my copy. Stay tuned.

Regards! Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:17 pm

That said, one could also argue the fact that there could be differences in the color due to the printing process of the catalog, as folks have argued the differences in appearance of color on a monitor. I'd say it would be closer in print, but coming from a professional printing background as I do, the color would only be as good as the printer who mixed the ink for the press run and his eye to color when comparing to a draft copy and printers color palate, so we'll have to accept even this evidence with a grain of salt.

I couldn't agree more. I just think any additional info would be helpful and even fun. Any closer to the source, the better.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:24 pm

I'll do some digging!

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:18 am

As someone who does print design for a living, I can see the pressmen:

"That ink is brown!"
"You're color blind! The ink is grey!"

If we were to find an old print catalog, it'd be great to try and find two or three of the exact catalog in order to judge print quality. Even so, we need several independent folks to agree on what they see in person when comparing these catalogs. If we just scan in and post pics from the catalog, I think we'd just get into the computer screen calibration debate again. I think this is a neat idea, though!

bink

VP · Post by VP » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:36 am

Mike wrote:Romulans and Klingons.

I prefer Romuclans and Plingons. http://www.starwreck.com

Nicht Storen · Post by **Nicht Storen** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:56 am

Then again if we are looking at a twenty-five year old catalog that has been buried in a garage. Can we be certain that the ink and paper are in the same condition as when the pages were printed? Do we need to account for color loss or color shift if the pages are a number of years old?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:37 am

It depends on how well the catalogs were stored. If they were stored out of light's reach and in a cool, dry place, they should be pretty good.

bink

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:15 am

That's how mine has been stored since I got it, as I do all my Indy collection that's in box storage (provided the mice haven't eaten it!

)

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:51 am

Well, remember what happened to the rats who sniffed around the crate containing the Ark?

bink

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:47 pm

They became Mighty Mouse?

Regards! Michaelson

VP · Post by VP » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:49 pm

No, they became the Mickey Mouse.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:57 pm

High regards! Michaelson

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:52 pm

Yeah, let's hope that it is in one of Michaelson's boxes that don't have shotgun holes in it.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:53 pm

You PEEKED!!!!

Regards! Michaelson

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:30 am

I wanted to make one more note on this hat color deal. I'm watching 'Last Crusade' right now, and I notice (again), Indy is "dressed up", in suits,on a few occasions in this flick. At Donavans, On the pier in Venice, and ALWAYS the lid is BROWN. I am CONVINCED that Speilberg and Lucas would keep this absolutely CONSISTENT! Indiana Jones wears a BROWN hat.

That being said, I'm not trying to start another debate here, especially since other information is coming forward. I just wanted to mention it real quick while I'm watching the movie.

have a nice day.

Vannevar · Post by **Vannevar** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:38 am

Texas Raider wrote:I wanted to make one more note on this hat color deal. I'm watching 'Last Crusade' right now, and I notice (again), Indy is "dressed up", in suits,on a few occasions in this flick. At Donavans, On the pier in Venice, and ALWAYS the lid is BROWN. I am CONVINCED that Speilberg and Lucas would keep this absolutely CONSISTENT! Indiana Jones wears a BROWN hat.

That being said, I'm not trying to start another debate here, especially since other information is coming forward. I just wanted to mention it real quick while I'm watching the movie.

have a nice day.

I dunno. Brown doesnt go with blue very well. If I may speculate, Dr. Jones would have more than one hat. I think it looks good. If the AB I have on order with Steve at the moment I will seriously consider procuring a raiders grey.

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:42 am

Brown doesn't go with blue??

uuhh- o.k.

hmm (cookoo,cookoo)

yes it does

have a nice day.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:28 am

Texas Raider wrote:I wanted to make one more note on this hat color deal. I'm watching 'Last Crusade' right now, and I notice (again), Indy is "dressed up", in suits,on a few occasions in this flick. At Donavans, On the pier in Venice, and ALWAYS the lid is BROWN. I am CONVINCED that Speilberg and Lucas would keep this absolutely CONSISTENT! Indiana Jones wears a BROWN hat.

Don't worry, I'm not starting a fight, either, but I'm just showing the flip side to your argument. What color are the suits he wears in ToD and LC? They are brown suits, not blue. Of course he'd wear a brown hat with a brown suit jacket. In ToD he doesn't actually wear a hat in the scenes with the tweed jacket. (Sure, you can argue that he didn't have an extra hat with him since Short Round wasn't carrying one with his gear, but you can also argue that he could have taken an extra hat with him in his stowed luggage on the planes in RotLA and LC. They had a lot of luggage rifled through in LC, remember? Besides, did Marcus have two hats during the travels with Indy in LC? I honestly don't remember, but I tought I saw a bowler and another wider brimmed hat. Someone please confirm or deny this.) Anyway, RotLA is the only movie in the trilogy where we see Indy in a dark blue suit. We see it twice, in fact, on the Clipper and on the steps at the closing of the film.

So the argument remains pretty much the same, I think. Would it make more sense to wear a grey hat with a dark blue suit? Yes, in my opinion. But even if it was a brown hat, it's not the same colour brown as the hero hats. It's still a different hat he would've had to take with him to Nepal.

I mentioned in another thread somewhere that I did a window light test with every hat I own (which is a lot!). They vary in colour, hue, and tone. I found the "hero hat" pretty well stayed obviously brown, as did the other medium/dark brown hats did, but a light brown hat could fool one into believing it was grey. Was Indy's hat light brown? No. I think we can agree on that point. My vintage grey Royal Stetson was consistantly grey. It's a medium/light grey with blue tones to it. No denying it, it was grey. I did find, however, that the grey hats I have which contain brown tones started acting a bit differently. Here, the lines between brown and grey could become less discernable depending upon the sunlight. This led me to believe that Indy's Clipper hat was a grey hat, but a medium grey with brown tones to it. This is where I wish I owned a digital camera, because I would have posted pics of this experiment. What's more, it would've been interesting to see how the camera would've read the color in comparison with what I actually saw.

bink

Vannevar · Post by **Vannevar** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:35 am

Yeah, he had a bowler in the USA and in venice. At Iskenderen he had a straw panama type thing.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:36 am

Anyhow, so we don't get far off topic, I hope we can uncover some of the old catalogs and compare them as we hoped.

bink

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:58 am

Hey Bink, take a look at what Indy is hold over is arm getting into tha plane (ROTLA). Would you wear a brown hat with a tan or light brown over coart?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:44 pm

You know, Jpenman, the trench coat has always been the anomoly as far as hats seem to go. Honestly, it's not out of fasion to wear a grey hat hat with a light tan trenchcoat. At least, not in the 1930's. The hats were usually in synch with the suits underneath. Hey, what about his shoes? Are they brown or black? If black, then it should most certainly be a grey hat to match.

bink

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:04 pm

Boys, it's getting into that color guessing topic again and I don't want this thread shut down as more and more people chime in with stuff we've already seen in the previous threads. Not trying to be a hard guy, but could you please refrain from the off topic stuff? I'm also interersted in debating this as Bink knows, but as I said in my initial post, I wanna keep this about other solid methods of trying to figure out the color. Are any of the previous threads still open?

Bink, just to answer your question on the shoes, they were a brownish red/maroon. There is a fairly well known prop collector guy (Michaelson knows him or of him) who owns them, or so he says. I wonder if they're Aldens of the period?

Now, take this info to another thread and runwith it like the wind! I'll see you there.

IndyK · Post by **IndyK** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 12:03 pm

I hope I dont offend anyone, but I simply dont understand why this topic keeps popping up.

Having now seen ROTLA I dont know how many times I have never, ever seen the hat as anything but brown.

Being a photographer and having trained other photographers in color-photography for more than 20 years, as well as having worked in film-laboratories for years, I see only a natural change of color due to light used on the set.
The scene on the plane is filmed in low light, in the shadow, which means that the colortemperature (kelvin) is supposed to resemble shadow, morning or whatever. In other words; light that comes from the blue sky only, whithout the warm of the sunlight being the main light.

The warm, brown color of the normal Indy fedoras is complementary to the cold, blueish/cyan color that comes from a clear sky.
Complementary means that the two colors are opposite each other in the colorsystem as shown here:

This means, that when the cold light hits the warm color hat, the two colors will neutralize each other and appear grey/color-less.

If You find a grey fedora that looks "on the plane"-grey when seen in normal daylight, that fedora would look blue in the light used in the plane.

To try to show the effect I can show You these photos of the new Wested-Indypants. It is the exact same pants used in all 4 photos, but the light is as follows:

Studiolight / flash.

Direct sunlight with blue sky.

Cloudy weather.

Low sun, evening.

If anyone shows up with a grey fedora and a ROTLA certificate of authentity I will off course have to reconsider my opinion, but untill then I beleive the hat is the same color as the rest of the hats in Raiders. Or as a danish saying goes: "In the dark all cats are grey..."

Cheers

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:36 pm

I've come to the conclusion that everybody could probably do the exact same experiement to the letter and still come up with opposite results. That said, this thread has strayed off topic (surprised?) and I'm sorry if I helped get it there. (No, I didn't get an angry PM from anybody, I came to this conclusion on my own.)

At any rate, here is a reminder of what agent5 originally posted:

I'm not debating what I or anyone else thinks is the true color of the hat, nor do I want this thread to turn into a repeat discussion on the subject, but I thought of something today that I don't think was brought up before.

Has anyone thought to look up vintage HJ's to see if they had hat's made in a similar color in the same time frame they made the hats for Raiders? I'd assume that they had to have a line of hats in the same color, right? Especially since they're not a custom hat shop.

Do they maybe have old catalogs that might show old hats? It may be a longshot, but perhaps they have older hats in a basement or warehouse or somewhere. I knwo that dealing with HJ on this subject matter would most likely not be easy either. I'm just trying to figure out a way we can find this out for real without just guessing and that idea came to mind. Way I see it, we can look at screen caps and guess all day, but all it did was separate us like Democrats and Republicans. I thought a change of approach was necessary/

I know someone had a vintage HJ ad somewhere at one time. Something like this could get us on the right track.
I thought ( i may be wrong) I heard Fedora mention that he may have tracked down the felt supplier that HJ used to use back in the late 70's, early 80's. That would definitely be a starting point for networking.

Anyone else have any serious ideas?

Let's try to steer it back on topic, okay?

bink

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:37 pm

Thanks, Bink and thanks for your pm, although it was totally unnecessary.

While I completely welcome any and all observastions and theories as to what the color may be, I just don't want this theard to get confused with the others. Some of which were closed and I just don't want to be redundant. I loved IndyK's post and thought it to be very informative. I just thought that it could lead to this thread getting shut down at some point. There are other sites that still have this open to discussion till we're blue in the face. Feel free to post there and I'll keep checking to join in.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:02 pm

Well at last it seems we collected a lot of interesting as well as opposite points of view with very good arguments for all of them.

Isnt great we have a rose of ideas anyway?

Now i'm looking foward to see these catalogues from 70s-80s. I think Michaelson had some but he needed to search for them because lost in his garage.

IndyK · Post by **IndyK** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:16 am

agent5 wrote: I loved IndyK's post and thought it to be very informative.

Very glad You feel that way since it was meant as such.

In Denmark the last decades has seen the opening of several so called industrial museums. Their goal is to save machinery, documents and history of the craftmanship now about to disappear. Having worked with a few of them I realized, that they were sometimes overwhelmed by the amount of material they received from especcially old and retired members of the trade.
I could very well imagine that England, being the home of proud traditions, would have similar museums, clubs or organizations keeping record of trades like hattery and I think it would be a good place to start the search for old catalogues. So now that new ideas are asked for, maybe some of the british COW-members could do the footwork and ask for this kind of information in local hatshops, not necessarily HJ being the first place to bother again. If You find the history of the trade You will automatically find the leading vendors and their history too.
Just an idea to get started.

Remember, as long as they have Ascot they will have hats...

Cheers

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:36 am

Haven't made it quite to the box I hoped to the weekend (getting more stuff ready for the upcoming wedding, then worked on storm preparations yesterday, as it's supposed to be coming right at us tonight through Wednesday. Ick.) BUT, I 'll fight my way on back to the one I think the catalog is in before the week is out. I promise. (that is, unless something ELSE screws up my plans...

) So, bear with me..

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:54 pm

Wow! You'll never guess what I stumbled upon in regards to an old hat ad. Check it out! This might just settle everything!

http://public.fotki.com/binkmeisterRick ... hatad.html

bink

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:21 am

OMG!!! That is freakin' AWESOME, Bink. Where in the heck did you get that?

If that's not irony...

It's perfect.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:58 am

binkmeisterRick wrote: http://public.fotki.com/binkmeisterRick ... hatad.html

Cute!!!!

Waiting to find a herbert-johnson's now

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:15 am

agent5 wrote:OMG!!! That is freakin' AWESOME, Bink. Where in the heck did you get that?

If that's not irony...

It's perfect.

Let's just say I had some free time last night... tee hee hee.... Of all people, I knew you'd probably appreciate it the most.

bink

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:08 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:
agent5 wrote:OMG!!! That is freakin' AWESOME, Bink. Where in the heck did you get that?

If that's not irony...

It's perfect.
Let's just say I had some free time last night... tee hee hee.... Of all people, I knew you'd probably appreciate it the most.

bink

Bink that is hilarious! It is perfect to that situation. It even has a plane and everything!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:03 am

The plane is what did it for me. After that, I just had to mess around with it a little.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:10 am

That is so great!

IndyK · Post by **IndyK** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:01 pm

I rest my case.

Glurrk · Post by **Glurrk** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:44 am

Getting way late in the discussion for this old thread, but...

I don't recall Indy wearing a fedora on the plane...

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:09 pm

Wow. Look at that taper. I think that hat appears to be orange! Some may say yellow, but damm you!!!

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:22 pm

It appears blue on my monitor, and I am not color blind.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:22 pm

I don't know, guys... cameras and lighting have a way of making orange look kinda mauve. I'm leaning towards green, myself...

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:48 pm

Oh, come on! That's just a brown propeller-beanie w/ some glare on it! If there were a real rainbow-colored propeller-beanie in that scene, don't you think it would have been donated to charity and auctioned off by now???

(Unless one of the big three are hoarding it in their closet...hmm...)

P.S. Bink - You REALLY had me going on that ad. Nice job! You're fired!

IndyK · Post by **IndyK** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:17 pm

It still looks brown to me, the crown in a green way though. D...! Gotta get myself a colormonitor one of these days...

Cheers

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:28 pm

Green? He's not wearing a Peters Brothers fedora!

O.k. Bad joke, but I had to.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:33 pm

SURE you did!

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:06 pm

Indiana Jerry wrote: P.S. Bink - You REALLY had me going on that ad. Nice job! You're fired!

As long as can I fool you, Jerry, then life is worth living.

bink

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:35 pm

So how much of that ad was original? Did you just add the words under the large pic?

I'm wondering if the part about 'brown for dress, grey for travel' was really on the ad or not.

That would be an important distinction!

Indiana Jess · Post by **Indiana Jess** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:57 pm

Glurrk wrote:Getting way late in the discussion for this old thread, but...

I don't recall Indy wearing a fedora on the plane...

That's how I remember the scene. The airplane crew referred to him as "Dorktor Jones".

The Grey/Brown hat : one more serious question?

The Grey/Brown hat : one more serious question?

Re: The Grey/Brown hat : one more serious question?

Re: The Grey/Brown hat : one more serious question?

hat