Indy hats over the years. My look back and to the future.
Moderators: Indiana Jeff, Dalexs
Indy hats over the years. My look back and to the future.
The following is told using the best of my poor brain. Some of the following time-lines may be slightly inaccurate due to years of alcohol consumption.
I first joined this site back in about 98' and when I did the HJ, and the PB were the kings of the Indy hat world. Before then we had the Miller and a couple of others, some of which my board predecessors would recall much better than myself.
Upon first getting into thoughts of buying the gear I began looking for the perfect Indy hat and it seemed at the time the HJ was being pushed aside for the newer Peter's Bros. hats which Joe Jr. was churning out at a fast pace and took the gear world by storm. Evenryone who was new to the board could not help but notice the vast amounts of gearheads buying them and the reveiws were pouring in by the 10's and 20's. Every time a new soul reported for gear duty, they were directed to the new PB's. It seemed to be the perfect Indy fedora. Bulletproof, they called it, even though it clearly was not. It was simply an annoying a punn which stuck. Never mind the bad reviews, not that there could be many becuase many were stuck on the bandwagon. Even if there was a negative thing to say, some were simply afraid to say it. At least, that was my thought on it.
Soon after, or perhaps even in the midst of the PB craze comes the Keppler. Again, news of the Keppler spead like wildfire and all the newbies were pointed out to it. Soon the reviews came in and it seemed a new dog was on the Indy horizon. It didn't take long for the Keppler to gain in popularity and for sales to flourish. No word on how long it'd take you to get it, but when you did, all said they were more than thrilled with it. Soon talk of the PB dropped considerably and the Keppler took it's place of the 'hat of the day' here on COW.
Then came to onslaught of the Akruba's. Standard, Federation, Deluxe, etc. People were still wearing their PB's and Kepplers along with a few die hards who still stuck to their guns and their HJ's. However, it wasn't long before everyone and their mother was telling every other gearhead to get a Fed. Fed this and fed that. Soon people began to buy into the fed craze and were laying down their other felts for the newly, highly regarded Fed. It seemed to be the new buzz. Whether you were an expert on the subject or just a newbie, you could count on someone to tell you it's the best hat for the money and you should get one. Never mind the other hats or hat makers, the Fed was it! Or, at least, that's what the majority was telling us.
The Fed's had a long run but soon after came the discovery of the thinner felts and Optimo. Soon it started all over again. Word of the new, lightweight felt seeped into the veins of COW and soon a new craze was born. It seemed it was the felt we'd been waiting for and a new fedora craze was on. People were laying down the PB's and Fed's the HJ was now off the radar screen. The buzz had begun again and the Optimo was the new word of the Indy fedora world. If you were just joining us at that time, you were directed to Optimo if you wanted a serious Indy hat and had a larger pocketbook. Kids were pinching pennies and some adults were too. Either way, you were told that Optimo was the bee's knees and that if you had the dough, you were in the know. Otherwise, it was back to an Akruba for you.
During the tail end and slightly after the Optimo craze came other offers from smaller vendors trying to rescue the now debunked HJ and they had a few takers who wanted to go back to the early days of Indygear youth. It was a slightly stagnant time of the Indygear fedora. Reviews were slower and the vendor scene came to a sort of standstill.
Winding down to the present, we have a new top dog in town. The Adventurebilt fedora. It didn't take long for the AB to get to where it is today, at the top of the fedora food chain. The reviews came swiftly and the results were all good. It seemed Indygear finally had an in-house hatter who cares. The quality is as good of any of the previous offerings and it seems people here just cannot get enough of this hat. The AB is the new 'flavor of the month', or year as it usually goes here.
Looking back on all of this I find a pattern that emerges and it's not just there, but other boards as well. When something get's popular to a certain group, the group as a whole overhadows the rest. We hardly hear talk of the Fed, Optimo or HJ and almost never hear of the PB's anymore. All talk has focused on the new. As it has been for some time now, whenever someone posts asking about the older offerings, their told to save money and look into the AB. Because the majority are now getting into ordering these, the fever is now in full swing and iI've found it almost seems trivial to the group as a whole even consider another hat. When newbies now come in the door, you can bet your bottom dollar that the one hat they will be told to buy is the AB, by the majority of members. When some ask what the cheapest Indy fedora is to get, some are simply told to get an AB. Not even a correct answer to the question, but that's the type of pattern that emerges here and abroad.
I was thinking about this pattern we see here and I'm wondering if those posting these sorts of things are honest in their opinions or if they are falling prey to the mojority opinion. I wonder how many of those posting about the AB have EVER seen or handled any of the many other offerings we have here? We do still have them, don't we? Over the years I've seen people say things like "PB is the best", or "You have to get a Fed, it's the best Indy hat", but had they ever owned another fedora or even had the chance to compare their new favorite hat with ANY of the other offerings of the time?
I just was thinking about all of this and about how I have seen these patterns emerge over the years. I wonder just how much experience those who are constantly posting about certain products have with other products in the COW lineup? Not just fedoras, but with any of the gear. We see people saying, 'Why get that when you can have the best fedora/jacket/pants/etc. out there?" , but do they REALLY know the product before they speak up? Maybe so.
I do know that many, many, many people have been swayed and sent down the wrong path by reviews that have been less than truthful or knowlegeable, especially early on in this hobby. In the end, it's all up to whatever is your personal taste to decide what gear is best for you and how you want to use it. I just hope that we don't see too many more people 'jumping on the bandwagon' and that we get a look at the BIG picture and not forget we have quite a few vendors out there who don't get the recognition they should or as much as they should around here. anymore I can see looking back that it's easy to get trapped into so many positive reviews but we can't forget that there is a flipside to everything and that some of these products have good AND possibly some bad, as past ventures have shown. Heck, it used to be "You have to get a PB, they're tough as nails!", now instead of PB, it's AB. It's funny when you've been here a while and you can look back and see these sorts of things taking place. The bandwagon. It makes me wonder who the flavor or the month will be next year or the year after that? Where will gear be in 2 years? Where can we go?
I first joined this site back in about 98' and when I did the HJ, and the PB were the kings of the Indy hat world. Before then we had the Miller and a couple of others, some of which my board predecessors would recall much better than myself.
Upon first getting into thoughts of buying the gear I began looking for the perfect Indy hat and it seemed at the time the HJ was being pushed aside for the newer Peter's Bros. hats which Joe Jr. was churning out at a fast pace and took the gear world by storm. Evenryone who was new to the board could not help but notice the vast amounts of gearheads buying them and the reveiws were pouring in by the 10's and 20's. Every time a new soul reported for gear duty, they were directed to the new PB's. It seemed to be the perfect Indy fedora. Bulletproof, they called it, even though it clearly was not. It was simply an annoying a punn which stuck. Never mind the bad reviews, not that there could be many becuase many were stuck on the bandwagon. Even if there was a negative thing to say, some were simply afraid to say it. At least, that was my thought on it.
Soon after, or perhaps even in the midst of the PB craze comes the Keppler. Again, news of the Keppler spead like wildfire and all the newbies were pointed out to it. Soon the reviews came in and it seemed a new dog was on the Indy horizon. It didn't take long for the Keppler to gain in popularity and for sales to flourish. No word on how long it'd take you to get it, but when you did, all said they were more than thrilled with it. Soon talk of the PB dropped considerably and the Keppler took it's place of the 'hat of the day' here on COW.
Then came to onslaught of the Akruba's. Standard, Federation, Deluxe, etc. People were still wearing their PB's and Kepplers along with a few die hards who still stuck to their guns and their HJ's. However, it wasn't long before everyone and their mother was telling every other gearhead to get a Fed. Fed this and fed that. Soon people began to buy into the fed craze and were laying down their other felts for the newly, highly regarded Fed. It seemed to be the new buzz. Whether you were an expert on the subject or just a newbie, you could count on someone to tell you it's the best hat for the money and you should get one. Never mind the other hats or hat makers, the Fed was it! Or, at least, that's what the majority was telling us.
The Fed's had a long run but soon after came the discovery of the thinner felts and Optimo. Soon it started all over again. Word of the new, lightweight felt seeped into the veins of COW and soon a new craze was born. It seemed it was the felt we'd been waiting for and a new fedora craze was on. People were laying down the PB's and Fed's the HJ was now off the radar screen. The buzz had begun again and the Optimo was the new word of the Indy fedora world. If you were just joining us at that time, you were directed to Optimo if you wanted a serious Indy hat and had a larger pocketbook. Kids were pinching pennies and some adults were too. Either way, you were told that Optimo was the bee's knees and that if you had the dough, you were in the know. Otherwise, it was back to an Akruba for you.
During the tail end and slightly after the Optimo craze came other offers from smaller vendors trying to rescue the now debunked HJ and they had a few takers who wanted to go back to the early days of Indygear youth. It was a slightly stagnant time of the Indygear fedora. Reviews were slower and the vendor scene came to a sort of standstill.
Winding down to the present, we have a new top dog in town. The Adventurebilt fedora. It didn't take long for the AB to get to where it is today, at the top of the fedora food chain. The reviews came swiftly and the results were all good. It seemed Indygear finally had an in-house hatter who cares. The quality is as good of any of the previous offerings and it seems people here just cannot get enough of this hat. The AB is the new 'flavor of the month', or year as it usually goes here.
Looking back on all of this I find a pattern that emerges and it's not just there, but other boards as well. When something get's popular to a certain group, the group as a whole overhadows the rest. We hardly hear talk of the Fed, Optimo or HJ and almost never hear of the PB's anymore. All talk has focused on the new. As it has been for some time now, whenever someone posts asking about the older offerings, their told to save money and look into the AB. Because the majority are now getting into ordering these, the fever is now in full swing and iI've found it almost seems trivial to the group as a whole even consider another hat. When newbies now come in the door, you can bet your bottom dollar that the one hat they will be told to buy is the AB, by the majority of members. When some ask what the cheapest Indy fedora is to get, some are simply told to get an AB. Not even a correct answer to the question, but that's the type of pattern that emerges here and abroad.
I was thinking about this pattern we see here and I'm wondering if those posting these sorts of things are honest in their opinions or if they are falling prey to the mojority opinion. I wonder how many of those posting about the AB have EVER seen or handled any of the many other offerings we have here? We do still have them, don't we? Over the years I've seen people say things like "PB is the best", or "You have to get a Fed, it's the best Indy hat", but had they ever owned another fedora or even had the chance to compare their new favorite hat with ANY of the other offerings of the time?
I just was thinking about all of this and about how I have seen these patterns emerge over the years. I wonder just how much experience those who are constantly posting about certain products have with other products in the COW lineup? Not just fedoras, but with any of the gear. We see people saying, 'Why get that when you can have the best fedora/jacket/pants/etc. out there?" , but do they REALLY know the product before they speak up? Maybe so.
I do know that many, many, many people have been swayed and sent down the wrong path by reviews that have been less than truthful or knowlegeable, especially early on in this hobby. In the end, it's all up to whatever is your personal taste to decide what gear is best for you and how you want to use it. I just hope that we don't see too many more people 'jumping on the bandwagon' and that we get a look at the BIG picture and not forget we have quite a few vendors out there who don't get the recognition they should or as much as they should around here. anymore I can see looking back that it's easy to get trapped into so many positive reviews but we can't forget that there is a flipside to everything and that some of these products have good AND possibly some bad, as past ventures have shown. Heck, it used to be "You have to get a PB, they're tough as nails!", now instead of PB, it's AB. It's funny when you've been here a while and you can look back and see these sorts of things taking place. The bandwagon. It makes me wonder who the flavor or the month will be next year or the year after that? Where will gear be in 2 years? Where can we go?
Last edited by agent5 on Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
- prairiejones
- Dig Leader
- Posts: 651
- Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:01 pm
- Location: In the damp jungles of Peru, drinking Dewar's with Pagey.
Interesting to know. I just joined about a month ago. It's interesting to know that My Federation was once the talk of the town. I must say that I am in love with it. Here are the latest pics.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b225/ ... ure193.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b225/ ... ure191.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b225/ ... ure193.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b225/ ... ure191.jpg
-
- Dig Leader
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You make an excellent point '5'! Groups do tend to hang together! I worked with Joe Jr for several PB's (really good hats, overall) including their Borsalino's versions! I did the Akubra route...overall, good, but not the best there is. I did the Keppler -- pretty cool, but un-even cut. I have done the Optimo route -- nice hat, but had to have PB re-shape for me! I have done the custom route with Baron's (quite happy with these -- very TOD/LC) and I have done Charlie's --- best of all! Yes, very expensive, but the best hats I have ever owned! My GHIJBrown was totally drenched in Texas this past March (even with protection from water sealant) and sent back for re-furb and it is better than ever and really 'Indy'! To add to this, I have three HJ's and two of Fedora's hats! These are good hats too -- the HJ's are not as good as one would expect, but look great (one is Charcoal -- just for clarification). So, to be completly honest with this review of 'Indy Hats'...my favorites to date are the ones made by Charlie and Dalia. There is just something about the quality of the pouncing and the details that intrigues me to no end. When it comes to hats....you get what you pay for -- I guess that is like anything else, really.
Just my $0.02! All regards! W>
Just my $0.02! All regards! W>
- prettybigguy
- Archaeologist
- Posts: 341
- Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:16 pm
- Location: Milwaukee, WI
Great thread Agent 5! I've been around here since the tail end of the PB craze and the beginning of the Fed. Thanks to some big summits and some people with deep pockets, I've seen and handled all the big names including the PB2, PBBM, PB Mercury, Fed, Fed Deluxe, Old & New Kepplers, HJ, Optimo, AB, Gary White and ton of vintage lids. They all have their merits (I own both a PB and a few Optimos) depending what the customer is looking for. I'm by no means an expert about fedoras, but because of this forum, I don't need to be, there's plenty around here (and plenty who think they are)!
For all the newbees out there reading this, There are a LOT of knowlegable people on this board and there are just as many who, for whatever reason, have moved on to other things. Even though they are long gone, thanks to the administrators of this board, their knowledge is still archived here. So before you decide on a fedora, take the time to look back into the COW archives and read about some of the fedoras that Agent 5 has discussed. The current flavor of fedora may be exactly what you are after, but you may find something even better with a little leg-work! In the long run you'll be happier you did, and so will your wallet. This place is full of stories of members who are on their 5th fedora or their 8th jacket because they got so pumped up about something that they took the plunge before really seeing how deep the water is!
PBG
For all the newbees out there reading this, There are a LOT of knowlegable people on this board and there are just as many who, for whatever reason, have moved on to other things. Even though they are long gone, thanks to the administrators of this board, their knowledge is still archived here. So before you decide on a fedora, take the time to look back into the COW archives and read about some of the fedoras that Agent 5 has discussed. The current flavor of fedora may be exactly what you are after, but you may find something even better with a little leg-work! In the long run you'll be happier you did, and so will your wallet. This place is full of stories of members who are on their 5th fedora or their 8th jacket because they got so pumped up about something that they took the plunge before really seeing how deep the water is!
PBG
- binkmeisterRick
- Stealer of Wallets
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You make an interesting case, Agent5. However, I always try my best to leave the final decision to the actual buyer. But I do share my personal opinions when asked. From my experience, I can say fairly that I can discuss the Dorfman, Akubra Federation Standard, PB Indy (not the Borsalino), the Optimo, the Keppler, and the AdventureBilt. I've personally owned the Akubra and the AB. I think each hat has its place in the gear world according to preference and taste.
In a nutshell:
I think the Akubra is a fine hat that can take a lickin' and keep on tickin.' It's a great hat for those on a tight budget. However, from my experience in owning one, it tapered, begun to fade a little from its browner hues, and the felt became a little lifeless. I did get a great top center dent out of it, though.
The PB Indy I saw was VERY stiff and felt like a cowboy hat. The color and shape were fine, but I didn't like the feel of it. Still, if you like the PB, gofor it!
The Dorfman... well... it's wool, unless you go for the felt version. Minnesota Jones has a fur Dorfman he's had great luck with, but for the price, you could buy the Akubra, which is more screen accurate.
I saw ITG's Keppler at C3 and thought it was a nice hat. It had a rich color and was nice and soft to the touch. The crown seemed a little short FOR MY TASTE, and I've only heard of other's issues with how long it took them to get their hats, but I would not be ashamed to own a Keppler in the least.
Agent5, I was amazed at the thinness of the felt on your Optimo. It's a very nice hat. Though I've read conflicting reports on the true beaver content of Optimos, again, I would be happy to have an Optimo in my collection. However, around $350-$400 (if I recall correctly) is just too high a price for my budget, no mater how nice the hat is. If folks have the cash and want an Optimo, I will not stand in their way.
And as you know, I am a huge advocate of the beaver AdventureBilt. (I haven't seen a rabbit AB in person.) What I love about this hat is that it reminds me of the vintage fedoras a owned or have owned. It's also certified 100% beaver felt. It shapes itself easily and with little effort (like the Optimo, I might add) but this is a hand made hat to my exact specs and for about half the price of an Optimo or other 100% beaver hats I've seen recently. If you want a 100% beaver hat, I go to the AB for the price and quality value.
All that being said, if I had unlimited cashflow, I would own at least one of everything. Sure, I'd get an Optimo, and HJ, Keppler, etc. But since money is usually tight, I have to make my personal hat buying decisions carefully and within a certain budget. So for me, my next hat will (eventually) be another AB or a Camptown. But this is my choice based on my research and requirements. It may be different for other folks. And If I can get a new improved HJ for the same as an AB, then it's in the running for me. Time will tell.
What would be cool is if there could be another fedora shootout of all the current offerings. Maybe we could get Consumer reports involved!
bink
In a nutshell:
I think the Akubra is a fine hat that can take a lickin' and keep on tickin.' It's a great hat for those on a tight budget. However, from my experience in owning one, it tapered, begun to fade a little from its browner hues, and the felt became a little lifeless. I did get a great top center dent out of it, though.
The PB Indy I saw was VERY stiff and felt like a cowboy hat. The color and shape were fine, but I didn't like the feel of it. Still, if you like the PB, gofor it!
The Dorfman... well... it's wool, unless you go for the felt version. Minnesota Jones has a fur Dorfman he's had great luck with, but for the price, you could buy the Akubra, which is more screen accurate.
I saw ITG's Keppler at C3 and thought it was a nice hat. It had a rich color and was nice and soft to the touch. The crown seemed a little short FOR MY TASTE, and I've only heard of other's issues with how long it took them to get their hats, but I would not be ashamed to own a Keppler in the least.
Agent5, I was amazed at the thinness of the felt on your Optimo. It's a very nice hat. Though I've read conflicting reports on the true beaver content of Optimos, again, I would be happy to have an Optimo in my collection. However, around $350-$400 (if I recall correctly) is just too high a price for my budget, no mater how nice the hat is. If folks have the cash and want an Optimo, I will not stand in their way.
And as you know, I am a huge advocate of the beaver AdventureBilt. (I haven't seen a rabbit AB in person.) What I love about this hat is that it reminds me of the vintage fedoras a owned or have owned. It's also certified 100% beaver felt. It shapes itself easily and with little effort (like the Optimo, I might add) but this is a hand made hat to my exact specs and for about half the price of an Optimo or other 100% beaver hats I've seen recently. If you want a 100% beaver hat, I go to the AB for the price and quality value.
All that being said, if I had unlimited cashflow, I would own at least one of everything. Sure, I'd get an Optimo, and HJ, Keppler, etc. But since money is usually tight, I have to make my personal hat buying decisions carefully and within a certain budget. So for me, my next hat will (eventually) be another AB or a Camptown. But this is my choice based on my research and requirements. It may be different for other folks. And If I can get a new improved HJ for the same as an AB, then it's in the running for me. Time will tell.
What would be cool is if there could be another fedora shootout of all the current offerings. Maybe we could get Consumer reports involved!
bink
-
- Legendary Adventurer
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hat
agent5 , I don't know, I get what you are saying that groups do tend to just go along with whatever the flavor of the month is. Could it also be that companys are just putting out better product and beating the old dogs at there own game. Maybe Petersbrothers at that time had the best hat out and someone came along at put out a better hat.
I do think the new guy coming to COW needs to do there homework but needs to provide more info for what the really want ( rather than saying what the best hat). You will only get the flavor of the month if you do this.
do you honestly think Petersbrothers or Herbert johnson or Dorman etc. make a better hat than the Adventurebilt right now at this moment?
If someone can make a better hat I think everyone should jump ship and start buying that hat. It should keap hat makers on there toe's and keap there product at it highest level.
Petersbrothers that should be a big hint for you guy's.
It might look like someone at Herbert johnson got the wake up call finally.
I do think the new guy coming to COW needs to do there homework but needs to provide more info for what the really want ( rather than saying what the best hat). You will only get the flavor of the month if you do this.
How is anyone ever going to know what there tast is when you can't see the product in person. That is the reseon one comes and ask for help here at COW.I do know that many, many, many people have been swayed and sent down the wrong path by reviews that have been less than truthful or knowlegeable, especially early on in this hobby. In the end, it's all up to whatever is your personal taste to decide what gear is best for you and how you want to use it.
do you honestly think Petersbrothers or Herbert johnson or Dorman etc. make a better hat than the Adventurebilt right now at this moment?
If someone can make a better hat I think everyone should jump ship and start buying that hat. It should keap hat makers on there toe's and keap there product at it highest level.
Petersbrothers that should be a big hint for you guy's.
It might look like someone at Herbert johnson got the wake up call finally.
- prairiejones
- Dig Leader
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- Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:01 pm
- Location: In the damp jungles of Peru, drinking Dewar's with Pagey.
You guys know how I feel about my Akubra. My heart will always be with it. And it's even defective. I may end up loving it more than the replacepent that is on the way. I don't know. But I do see limitations in the crown. Is it that it rounds out too soon? It seems to need to be more square at the crown to get get those boxy Raiders bashes. I think it is a quality hat. It is taking every ounce of bashing that I have given, and am very proud of it. Just wondering if anyone has noticed the limitations of the block.
- J_Weaver
- Expeditionary Hero
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- Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:18 pm
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prairie, I know exactly what your talking about. The Akubra is definately a quality hat, but it does have its limitations. Like you said the crown it too round. The one I have here came tapered out of the box. But its my dad's hat and he's not to concerned about it.
I think the biggest reason that we see the top dog continually being replaced is because the next hat is better. Vendor after vendor keeps getting closer to "the" hat. At the moment AB is the best we have. Personally, I can't see it getting much better.
I think the biggest reason that we see the top dog continually being replaced is because the next hat is better. Vendor after vendor keeps getting closer to "the" hat. At the moment AB is the best we have. Personally, I can't see it getting much better.
Very interesting summary 5!
If handled most of the offerings out there and owned quite a few of them (talking hats now). I know what I'm looking for in a hat and have spent a small fortune on the subject during the years.
Depending on who asks me, I have four vendors I'd recommend (if you coun't e-bay as a vendor of vintage hats).
-One for the "I don't care what it costs, I just want the ultimate" customer
-One for the "I want an extremely accurate and well made Indy Fedora, that'll last a lifetime" customer
-One for the "I'm a 14 year old kid with little money and still growing" customer
-And finally e-bay for the "it's gotta be accurate for the time era" customer.
However I have stopped to answer the "which hat to get" threads, since in the end, the flavor of the month makes the run anyway (which hasn't to be bad).
Just my two cts.,
Marc
If handled most of the offerings out there and owned quite a few of them (talking hats now). I know what I'm looking for in a hat and have spent a small fortune on the subject during the years.
Depending on who asks me, I have four vendors I'd recommend (if you coun't e-bay as a vendor of vintage hats).
-One for the "I don't care what it costs, I just want the ultimate" customer
-One for the "I want an extremely accurate and well made Indy Fedora, that'll last a lifetime" customer
-One for the "I'm a 14 year old kid with little money and still growing" customer
-And finally e-bay for the "it's gotta be accurate for the time era" customer.
However I have stopped to answer the "which hat to get" threads, since in the end, the flavor of the month makes the run anyway (which hasn't to be bad).
Just my two cts.,
Marc
Hey guys, I own and HJ and it does the job fine. I've been in touch with fedora lately about giving it a refit but then decided just to buy an adventurebilt. IMHO, these are the two which wrestle it out for the gold medal, the HJ was THE hat and I have no complaints as I like a big 3 inch brim. The adventurebilt however seems to have a hardiness and of course the ultimate customisablity and a numero uno creator. So, when my one arrives after I get some cash together I'll add to this thread again. But you know what, perhaps the perfect one doesnt exist, we all have individual tastes in what we look for in a hat. We can only buy what we think is best and in the end, its all about having fun, not constant debates.
- binkmeisterRick
- Stealer of Wallets
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You hit the nail on the head, my friend. The absolute 100% perfect Indy hat was worn by Ford himself in the movies. We can only to our best to recreate it. Even hats of superior quality to the hat Ford wore on his head are not "perfect" because I'm sure Ford's hat had its own limitations, imperfections, and quirks which made it the hat we all strive for. That said, it comes then to personal opinions and requirements on what makes the perfect Indy hat reproduction. This is where the lines start to blur and the debates begin.Vannevar wrote: But you know what, perhaps the perfect one doesnt exist, we all have individual tastes in what we look for in a hat. We can only buy what we think is best and in the end, its all about having fun, not constant debates.
In my opinion, it seems that after the original HJ changed, there were one or two hatters near the begining of the hobby who tried and listened to the fans to recreate the "true" Indy hat. As the interest grew, and as other hatters got into the game, it appears as if each new offering was built upon the successes and failures of those before, combined with the input and critiques of the fanbase. Thus, most hats therafter improved on the quality and variety of what previous offerings were available.
I don't think that it's so much of people jumping from one fad or flavor-of-the-month hat as it is fans are looking to buy a good quality Indy fedora that is well made and looks screen accurate. It's kind of like buying a new car. 10 years ago you had a certain amount of choices. You bought the best car for you at that time. 10 years later, you can still find the cars you had a decade ago, but now you have newer automobiles that in many ways are better than those made before. Are buyers going to scoff at the new cars saying that folks are jumping on the bandwagon just because they're new cars and they should still consider something that is older, just because it's been around longer?
No, a new car buyer is going to look at ALL the options and decide what fits his or her needs. More choices and better choices. At the end of the day, it could be a 70's Volkswagen Bug, a Jeep from the 80's, a 90's Honda Civic, or a current production hybrid. Chances are, a buyer is going to buy the best car the driver can afford. Sure, a 70's VW Bug used to be a great car for its day, but a current production automobile is going to be a better quality car. I think it's the same for Indy hats. At the end of the day, you need to do your homework, drive off the lot and be happy with your purchase.
bink
I wonder how many of those posting about the AB have EVER seen or handled any of the many other offerings we have here?
I liked this one. I am one of those who has owned every Indy fedora available. And, that is why I started making my own Raiders fedoras. I was involved in the history mentioned. I bought 3 Optimos. 1200 bucks. I liked the block shape of the Optimo, the most accurate until I started. What I did not like was the felt vs. the price. But, the price of a hat, somtimes is one of the selling points. If it costs more, it has to be better.
I see the history in a different light. I see it as a movement from inaccurate Indy fedoras to a more accurate one. When I first joined Indyfan, years ago, if you wanted an accurate Indy fedora, you were out of luck. I am sure many here recall those days. HJs were difficult to get at the time. You might wait months on an order to arrive. Then, HJ would be out of stock, etc. And, when you got the HJ, it might look good, but many times it did not. No consistent crown height. No consistent block shape. Some looked like witches hats. Some were cowboy stiff, some were not. And they had athen, hefty price tag, which stopped many from buying them. We were, back then, wearing lots of Stetson Temples(yuck) and then we discovered the open crown Stetson Nostalgia. Before everyone could get one, they stopped making them!! But, this hat from the factory, only sported a 5 inch open crown. Too short for us.
Several of us, worked with Ron at Hatsdirect to have Akubra make us an Indy fedora with a tall enough crown. Remember, we could not get a taller crown hat at the time. Yep, we have really traveled far in this quest.
With the Akubra Federation being the best we had come up with, to me, it was still lacking in one area. Not all sizes had a good block shape. Why? I do not have a clue, but I have personally seen it. It just so happened that in my size, the block shape was not nearly as good as the one used for the 7 3/8. So, I started reblocking mine and wore these hats for years. During this time period, I started looking for better felt. What got me started was I started buying vintage hats on ebay. I gotta tell you, I was shocked at the difference in felt quality of these old hats. I then discovered the truth of the matter. In order to even approach the fine felts of yesteryear(Indy's timeline), you had to buy a really fine felt. And that felt was none other than the proven beaver felt. The creme of the crop, now, and then. Thing was, most of these hats were 500 bucks and up!! Well, once I found out what you could buy raw beaver bodies for, I was double shocked. It was an eye opener, that is for sure. After seeing my first beaver felted hat, I was spoiled, and spoiled forever. It will do that to you if you appreciate quality stuff. It stands alone, IMHO.
So, while it may appear we are flaky bunch, ready to hop on the new bandwagon, at a deeper level, I think this observation is flawed. I think what you see here, on this forum, and a continuation of the movement started on Indyfan, is nothing more than us(me) striving for a better hat. In this mix is the price, the quality, the looks, etc. My own personal quest ended when I made my first pure beaver Raiders fedora. That is the truth, for me. But, I think there are other good options out there. Who? Well, the Akubra Federation for one. I like these hats, still. I think they are a great bang for the buck, and everyone should own one. And there is one more that I would add to my persoanl list. Optimo. I would only buy 3 hats nowadays. The Akubra,(around 100 bucks or so), an Optimo(750 for a beaver) and my own line. (225.00 for a pure beaver) The rest of the stuff is either overpriced, or low quality hats. And this includes the grail of Indy fedoras, the HJ. Once upon a time, HJ was indeed a fine hatter. World known. It was fizzling out around the time Raiders was made. We bought many of those fizzles. Nowadays, in my advancing years, I will only spend my money on quality hats. I consider most of what we can get,as disposable hats. You wear them till they taper, and then trash them. In the old days, the hats were good enough to wear for many years, and every dry cleaner usually had a hat cleaning and reblock service. Like many other things in our modern world, hats have become disposable items. It is engineered into them. Planned oblescense. This is my strong opinion on the subject. And, I can honestly put that forth, as it comes from my experience as a hatter, having to work with some of this felt. And it comes from owning multiples of every Indy fedora out there, now and then. Just my 2 cents on the subject. Fedora
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Fedora, very well said.
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Uh, yeah, I was at a party this weekend and talked to a guy who used to tend bar at a really expensive Italian restaurant. He said that when he started working there, the person training him said, "this is the button you hit on the cash register for the upscale wine."Fedora wrote:If it costs more, it has to be better.
"Where is the upscale wine?" my friend asked. "I didn't see any bottles."
"Well, actually it's the house wine. We just charge more."
"Isn't that a little crooked?"
"Hey, if people want to pay more, they're gonna think it's better. You could even put the two side by side and they'd swear that the wine with the higher price was better, even though it's really the same wine."
We got quite a laugh out of that story, and I was glad my wife and I hadn't ordered the 'upscale wine.'
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Agent 5, great thread!
I have been here for nearly two years, and I have also noticed the growing change in which hat is 'flavour of the month'.
I agree with you when you stated that there were many people who had commented on the Adventurebilt when, in fact, they had not even seen one. It also frustrates me when new people join and people almost force their opinions about which hat is best.
I wish that some here would realise that not everybody can afford the more expensive hats, and sometimes, it should be down to their personal taste, and not what other people's.
All in all, a pretty interesting thread (and very well written, despite your alcohol consumption).
I have been here for nearly two years, and I have also noticed the growing change in which hat is 'flavour of the month'.
I agree with you when you stated that there were many people who had commented on the Adventurebilt when, in fact, they had not even seen one. It also frustrates me when new people join and people almost force their opinions about which hat is best.
I wish that some here would realise that not everybody can afford the more expensive hats, and sometimes, it should be down to their personal taste, and not what other people's.
All in all, a pretty interesting thread (and very well written, despite your alcohol consumption).
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I agree with you for the most part Canyon , but a penny wise a pound foolish. I think sometimes it's better to wait a little and buy something thats a little bit more( like the AB ) then to spend the money on something thats just not worth saving a few bucks. Come on guy's and dolls Steve's prices are great just like his work and service. I hope he doesn't read this and ups his price . I would have liked to saved some money on less quality hats and buy better ones (AB for example).
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Thanks for the history recap, A5 - very interesting.
All this has happened before, and it will all happen again ... (BSG).
What you describe kind of reminds me of the tech stock craze in the late 90s. Stocks would be hot for half a year or so, until the new Golden child arrived; then everyone would bandwagon on another hot-stock stallion.
All this has happened before, and it will all happen again ... (BSG).
What you describe kind of reminds me of the tech stock craze in the late 90s. Stocks would be hot for half a year or so, until the new Golden child arrived; then everyone would bandwagon on another hot-stock stallion.
Man, you're completely missing her point.I agree with you for the most part Canyon , but a penny wise a pound foolish. I think sometimes it's better to wait a little and buy something thats a little bit more( like the AB ) then to spend the money on something thats just not worth saving a few bucks.
She said:
To you and to myself, the AB's are a steal for what you get, but you have to remember that there are some here who simply cannot afford one and just want a beater until they can. To some, the least expensive of the AB's may still be expensive. When someone comes on and says they're looking for the best cheapy hat, then give them the info they're asking for. That's all.I wish that some here would realise that not everybody can afford the more expensive hats
I completely agree with alot of the points made. I know that the hats over the years have gotten better and that that's the bottom line. I just tend to worry about people who read some of the old threads and then buy one hat and one hat only and then start making assumptions that their hat is the best and will only direct people to buy that hat, nomatter what. There are those who do the homework and have either purchased or at least seen most of, if not all the offerings we have and they can make informed comments. That's how it should be.
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....and whats wrong with that????What you describe kind of reminds me of the tech stock craze in the late 90s. Stocks would be hot for half a year or so, until the new Golden child arrived; then everyone would bandwagon on another hot-stock stallion.
Speaking of going 'back to the future', I still wish I could go back and change history that would give me a HJ that would still fit today. I'm sure waaay back in the archives, this story lurks, but this thread got me thinking about it again.
Back in the day, when Lee Keppler was pretty much the only source to get your gear, I got an HJ that I thought was too big. Calling around to local hatters, I asked if one could help resize it to fit better. I didn't realize I was taking the hat to a butcher! When I got the hat back, it did fit, but also had the brim trimmed and was reworked to look like a Sinatra-esque Rat Pack hat... right down to the guy adding a feather in the bow! I was crushed and immediately called Lee to get a replacement HJ in a smaller size. So I now have a HJ that can still help hatters compare felt and block types, but is just a wee bit tight for the old noggin.
Talk about penny wise, pound foolish.
I actually wore that HJ to the first Gettysburg Summit. It was a bit funny as it was pretty windy that day. All the other attendees had to hold their hats, but there I was standing firm into the head wind, with nary a doubt that that HJ would stay in place. The red mark across my forehead at lunch was a testiment to how tight it was. Good times.
So while I'll always regret having a grand specimen of an HJ destroyed, it is good to see that the one I have remaining has helped others to get closer to the hat we strive for today.
...OK, enough for waxing nostalgic. Nothing more to see here 'move along... move along'. <... he says, wiping mist from eyes at pics of old HJs. >
Mike
Back in the day, when Lee Keppler was pretty much the only source to get your gear, I got an HJ that I thought was too big. Calling around to local hatters, I asked if one could help resize it to fit better. I didn't realize I was taking the hat to a butcher! When I got the hat back, it did fit, but also had the brim trimmed and was reworked to look like a Sinatra-esque Rat Pack hat... right down to the guy adding a feather in the bow! I was crushed and immediately called Lee to get a replacement HJ in a smaller size. So I now have a HJ that can still help hatters compare felt and block types, but is just a wee bit tight for the old noggin.
Talk about penny wise, pound foolish.
I actually wore that HJ to the first Gettysburg Summit. It was a bit funny as it was pretty windy that day. All the other attendees had to hold their hats, but there I was standing firm into the head wind, with nary a doubt that that HJ would stay in place. The red mark across my forehead at lunch was a testiment to how tight it was. Good times.
So while I'll always regret having a grand specimen of an HJ destroyed, it is good to see that the one I have remaining has helped others to get closer to the hat we strive for today.
...OK, enough for waxing nostalgic. Nothing more to see here 'move along... move along'. <... he says, wiping mist from eyes at pics of old HJs. >
Mike
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I have just officially finished downing 2 bottles of Pepto Bismol after that!Mike wrote:Speaking of going 'back to the future', I still wish I could go back and change history that would give me a HJ that would still fit today. I'm sure waaay back in the archives, this story lurks, but this thread got me thinking about it again.
Back in the day, when Lee Keppler was pretty much the only source to get your gear, I got an HJ that I thought was too big. Calling around to local hatters, I asked if one could help resize it to fit better. I didn't realize I was taking the hat to a butcher! When I got the hat back, it did fit, but also had the brim trimmed and was reworked to look like a Sinatra-esque Rat Pack hat... right down to the guy adding a feather in the bow! I was crushed and immediately called Lee to get a replacement HJ in a smaller size. So I now have a HJ that can still help hatters compare felt and block types, but is just a wee bit tight for the old noggin.
Mike
Years later Mike, ... I mourn your loss!
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I came into IndyGear just as the PB craze started to pick up. I got an Akubra while dimensional cutting your brim was still the hottest topic and thread.
It is funny the advances and trends everyone has seen or made. We've got our own "IndyGear Archaeology"!
Regards,
MJ