Where are all the Indy Greys???

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:50 pm

I walked in my son's room a while ago and saw the Raiders DVD lying there, and mentioned this discussion to my wife. So I popped the DVD in, fast forward to the clipper and asked my wife, "what color is Indy's hat?" and she said "Brown". WHOA!!! And I have to admit when I viewed it, It didn't look as grey as it has in other viewings. She repeated, "a faded brown"

Is your wife from Texas?

I feel there may be a conspiracy here.

Indyjim · Post by **Indyjim** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:10 pm

(':-k') I don't think so.('[-(') Nah!!!

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:13 pm

agent5 wrote:
Is your wife from Texas?

I feel there may be a conspiracy here.

Hey 5, I see gray and I'm a native to Texas. (sorry to break the emerging pattern up)

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:31 pm

I still say the gray fedora looks gray and the brown fedora looks brown.

Oh, Toht's black fedora looks black to me too.....

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:19 am

One day, you folks are gonna be "eatin' crow". The facts will come out someday, whether Harrison gets interviewed by one the "Indy COW folks" or whatever. But that is a brown hat. Indiana Jones wears a brown hat. I don't care if Swayles made 50 grey hats. They were for other characters or not used at all! Michaelson, did the people tell you specifically what scenes the grey hat was used in? If it was such a short time period after the movies, they should have been able to remember and verify that, too.

have a nice day.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:21 am

It really is funny to me to hear everyone arguing over what color hat they see on their television. Your television is NOT capable of displaying accurate color unless you have had it professionally calibrated or your set has a color temperature adjustment and you have it set to the lowest setting or the warmest setting and by the off chance that this setting is actually close to the NTSC standard. Here is the reason why.

The NTSC picture we view on our televisions have a standard which can not be deviated from, for accurate color. The tv manufacturers adjust your brand new set improperly at the factory on purpose. Why? Simple. If they adjust it improperly, they will sell more sets.

For accurate color, the color temperature must be set to 6500 degrees kelvin. Anything other than this and it results in inaccurate color. The tv manufacturers know this, but they still set the color temperature too high on purpose.

The higher the color temperature, the brighter a picture will look. It is just a fact about the way that a human eye works, that if you look at 50 tvs lined up in a store, the one that looks brightest is the one that you will swear looks the best. If they are close to the same price, the brightest one is the one that you will buy. So, the manufacturers continue to set the color temperature too high to attrack your eye and they can sell more tvs.

Having the color temperature too high is also bad for the set as it overdrives the picture tube and will decrease the life of the set. The manufacturers don't care about this either, because it just means that your tv will wear out sooner and then you will buy another one. It is planned obsolescence.

Some tvs have the color temperature set so high, that in winter scenes, the snow actually has a blue tint to it. Most of the snow that I have seen is white, not blue.

So, unless you have had a professional calibration done on your set, it really doesn't matter if you see a gray hat or a brown hat. You aren't looking at accurate color anyway.

If you would like to have your set professionally calibrated, contact Joe Kane's Imaging Science Foundation for all the information that you need.

http://www.imagingscience.com/

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:26 am

Bufflehead Jones wrote:It really is funny to me to hear everyone arguing over what color hat they see on their television. Your television is NOT capable of displaying accurate color unless you have had it professionally calibrated or your set has a color temperature adjustment and you have it set to the lowest setting or the warmest setting and by the off chance that this setting is actually close to the NTSC standard. Here is the reason why.

The NTSC picture we view on our televisions have a standard which can not be deviated from, for accurate color. The tv manufacturers adjust your brand new set improperly at the factory on purpose. Why? Simple. If they adjust it improperly, they will sell more sets.

For accurate color, the color temperature must be set to 6500 degrees kelvin. Anything other than this and it results in inaccurate color. The tv manufacturers know this, but they still set the color temperature too high on purpose.

The higher the color temperature, the brighter a picture will look. It is just a fact about the way that a human eye works, that if you look at 50 tvs lined up in a store, the one that looks brightest is the one that you will swear looks the best. If they are close to the same price, the brightest one is the one that you will buy. So, the manufacturers continue to set the color temperature too high to attrack your eye and they can sell more tvs.

Having the color temperature too high is also bad for the set as it overdrives the picture tube and will decrease the life of the set. The manufacturers don't care about this either, because it just means that your tv will wear out sooner and then you will buy another one. It is planned obsolescence.

Some tvs have the color temperature set so high, that in winter scenes, the snow actually has a blue tint to it. Most of the snow that I have seen is white, not blue.

So, unless you have had a professional calibration done on your set, it really doesn't matter if you see a gray hat or a brown hat. You aren't looking at accurate color anyway.

If you would like to have your set professionally calibrated, contact Joe Kane's Imaging Science Foundation for all the information that you need.

http://www.imagingscience.com/

consumerism

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:11 pm

The NTSC picture we view on our televisions have a standard which can not be deviated from, for accurate color.

For accurate color, the color temperature must be set to 6500 degrees kelvin. Anything other than this and it results in inaccurate color.

There IS no such thing as accurate color unless somethig is viewed directly by the human eye. That's the very reason not one single frame of film or any tv set or movie screen will get us any closer tot he true color of the hat. They're all simply the best interpritation of what the natural colors should be. Still, a manmade recreation.

Alabama Jones · Post by **Alabama Jones** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:18 pm

Its definately a gray hat. I even had an official gray Indy wool hat made by Stetson in 1985.

Indy is styish and would not wear a brown hat with a navy double-breasted suit to a meeting with bureaucratic fools.

Its grey.

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:04 pm

The light brown with a navy suit is stylish, as well. Sure he would, and he did. It's brown. I've watched multiple times on 4 different kinds of screens. Brown.

have a nice day.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:16 pm

Well if you wear something blue you just need a brown tie to match good with a brown hat

Anyway guys I really dont know what to believe about the grey hats... i just say... dont trust always your eyes, expecially when we talk about photos... or films... to convince you all about my "warning" i post again a pic of my Stetson 1984 (that IS brown)

and the AB (BROWN!) It's the same hat in all the three pics but pics are taken at different time of the day

DON'T TRUST PHOTOS OR FILMS! They could just look different from what they really are

YOU REALLY CANNOT SAY THAT THOSE "GREY" HATS IN MY PICS WOULDNT MATCH PERFECTLY WITH A BLUE SUIT! :evil:

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:23 pm

Not to belabor THAT point, but I HAVE watched several old color movies lately where the mix of blue suit/brown hat WAS a regular thing....so that didn't seem to be an actual consideration during the 30's thru 50's if you watch old films.

Regards! Michaelson

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:23 pm

Thank you. I have wondered why the reluctance of wearing a brown fedora with a blue suit... As erri_wan pointed out (he's Italian - they invented style!), you only have to match your clothing and it will work as a charm. (Personally, I'd go with a dark red/maroon tie.

)

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:29 pm

Scandinavia Jones wrote:As erri_wan pointed out (he's Italian - they invented style!), you only have to match your clothing and it will work as a charm.

Oh Yeah!

Scandinavia Jones wrote: (Personally, I'd go with a dark red/maroon tie. )

Really kick ars! red-brownish tie matches very good with a brown hat

It's what an italian in style would do

(and what i was thinking about actually)

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:33 pm

Indy would not wear a brown hat with a navy double-breasted suit.

But, brown and dk.blue do go together.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:37 pm

agent5 wrote:
Indy would not wear a brown hat with a navy double-breasted suit.
But, brown and dk.blue do go together.

They might... but a redbrownish tie helps a lot anyway!

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:53 pm

OK. I finally pulled out my p/s Raiders copy and checked it out on my pc. Now, I'm going on a limb here and I'm going to actually go to the defense of one Mr. Texas Raider.
When I watched the scene of him going up the stairs of the Clipper, I noticed that while the hat was a muddy looking color, the ribbon looks light brown to me. "Wait a minute", I thought as I looked it over again. It sure looks brown to me.
Then I looked the the scene from the end of the film and got the same thing, only I took a look at his shoes, which were a burgundy or with a dark red tint. Now, they would NOT have him wearing a 'solid' (solid) gray hat with reddish shoes and a red tie. No way. There has to be some brown in that hat, especially if I am seeing a brown ribbon.
Now, I know I've been the guy saying we can never use the screen to judge the actual color and we can't, however the general basis of the color should be there. You'll never get the ACTUAL color but I'm seeing a light brown ribbon here in some form.

I'm sure many of the hat enthusiasts would agree that hatters are always looking for newer colors and I have a newer theory about this hat.

My theory is that the hat was mostly a grayish hat with brown tints to it. First bring out the earth tones in the costume, which seemed the basis for color in this film which makes perfect sense. Second has already been mentioned, that they wanted to stay true to the character and give him some brown in the second hat to bring the costumes together in a sort of way.

I began to recall Sergei's (where is he by the way?) post of his Optimo/Indybrown under different lighting conditions. In one light the hat was completely brown and with a slight turn, the felt changed colors to bring out reds and golds in all kinds of illustrious colors. However, out of natural light, it looked more like a flat brown. I'm guessing that they wanted a greyish looking hat but they needed those brown highlights or tints in the felt to bring it together with the rest of the costume.

Bottom line: I can't say the hat is a solid brown at all, but now I surely cannot say it's gray either. I think it's a hybrid, much like alot of the felts we see today.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:05 pm

Good starting point Agent5

If i can say my theory... i think the hat is the usual brown hat but spielberg changed light exposition to make it suits better with the blue clothes.

That's my personal opinion.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:06 pm

Steve has a felt that fits just what you described agent5. Its grey, but has a brown tint to it. With a dark brown ribbon the brown in the hat comes out more. It looks very close to Indy's "gray" hat. Steve, If you see this could you post a pic of your "Raiders Gray"?

IMO that hat that Indy wears at the plane and at the end of the movie is his dress hat. Its gray with brown undertones. With possibly a darkbrown ribbon. It certainly isn't his "field" hat and it certainly isn't brown.

Alabama Jones · Post by **Alabama Jones** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:13 pm

Michaelson wrote:I HAVE watched several old color movies lately where the mix of blue suit/brown hat WAS a regular thing....so that didn't seem to be an actual consideration during the 30's thru 50's if you watch old films.

Yeah, you're right about that. Hmm maybe its more of a modern style to prefer the gray with blue over brown. Or maybe its a southern thing as Weaver mentioned the exact same rule earlier in the thread.

Anyway, for 24 years I've thought it was gray, and I still do.

I'm really stretching my memory hear, but I *think* the novel describes Indy's main hat as gray, or maybe as "grayish brown" Someone help me out here....

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:13 pm

I know that the way the light bounces off a ribbon can drastically change the color preception of it, but I'm not seeing a dk brown ribbon. Looks more of a medium or light brown. Again, so many variables it's so hard to tell what you're actually looking at. Could be this, could be that.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:49 pm

agent5 wrote:
The NTSC picture we view on our televisions have a standard which can not be deviated from, for accurate color.

For accurate color, the color temperature must be set to 6500 degrees kelvin. Anything other than this and it results in inaccurate color.
There IS no such thing as accurate color unless somethig is viewed directly by the human eye. That's the very reason not one single frame of film or any tv set or movie screen will get us any closer tot he true color of the hat. They're all simply the best interpritation of what the natural colors should be. Still, a manmade recreation.

Wrong. A television is a display device with a signal that can be measured. If it is adjusted exactly to the standard, it will correctly display what you have input into it. How accurate that source signal is, is up to you and is dependant upon many factors including lighting.

If you are talking about someone that is color blind and cannot see properly, the display device is still displaying the exact signal that you have input into it. It doesn't matter if your eyeballs can't see it correctly. That is something wrong with that person, not the display device.

Alabama Jones · Post by **Alabama Jones** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:07 pm

Here is a pic of a gray Stetson Indy from the 1980's . I had one just like it and it looked much more gray in person than in this pic, which looks , admittedly, brownish-gray.

Compare it with the the brown fur Indy Stetson from the same era ... (I had one of these also, several actually and dang look at the price.

)

http://pages.tias.com/12435/PictPage/1922600343.html

I think this demonstrates the difference in the two film hats as I believe they were different colors. Still not CONCRETE evidence the hat was gray, but combined with the fact the manufacturer and Props Dpt say it was, a majority of gearheads who think it was, and the fact Stetson produced TWO treplica hats (one in each color Indy wore in Raiders IMO) and its a pretty dang good case.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:27 pm

Bufflehead,
Are you saying that the raw source for color on all tv sets is 1000% accurate to that which the human eye sees? There is no complete, concrete way to guage what we see. There can only be a 'standard' which you mention, that we can all go by. Even that is simply an interpritation of nature through technology. The device which you speak of that cannot be deviated from, is not natural. It's a complex device created by alot of people in labs which is determining that standard of color.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself correctly which I'm blamed for constantly or you're not understanding where I'm coming from.

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:55 pm

So, where is the blue suit used in the film? Was it ever mentioned or auctioned off?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:33 pm

Agent 5,

Maybe we are dancing around in circles here. Just like we have standards for weights and measures, we have standards for color. Someone needs to set a standard for what a pound is, or an ounce is, or a kilo is. These things are not up for discussion, they are what the standard is that has been set. You can measure them.

The same is true of color. Once you have a standard for color, you can make a device that will recreate that standard. If it is adjusted correctly, the display device will correctly recreate what has been input. If it is out of adjustment it will not display that standard properly.

Everyone may see that color differently, but the device is doing it's job if it is adjusted correctly. Someone that is color blind is not going to see color the same way that I am. They even have tests to see if you are color blind. In other words, if your eyes can properly see what has been determined as the standard.

We cannot look at the movie and see the color as it was in real life. We all know that movie lighting, color adjustments in the lab and a meriad of other things affect what the filmakers put on film. My point was that we can see exactly what the fiilmakers put on the film if we have a calibrated display device. If the display device is not calibrated, we can not do that. One person even stated that he saw a gray hat on one of his tvs, and a brown hat on another of his tvs. Neither of these sets were calibrated. If they were, they would have shown exactly the same color. It would have been exactly what the filmakers put on the film. If the filmakers altered the color with lighting, etc., that is not the fault of the display device if it is calibrated correctly and doing it's job, and that is, outputting exactly what was put into it.

Now, with everyone arguing over what color they see on their tv set. I pointed out that if you do not have your set professionally calibrated, it is improperly set at the factory by the manufacturer even though they know how the set should be adjusted. So what is the point of arguing over what color you see on your tv, if the maker of that set purposely set the color temperature wrong so that they could sell more tvs. With the color temperature set wrong, it is impossible for you to see accurately what color that hat was on the film.

As you can tell, it makes me mad that I know that the maker of my new tv set, improperly adjusted my tv at the factory so that they could increase their profit. I am not getting the quality picture that I am paying my hard earned money for. They don't care.

On top of that, they don't care that they are sending me my new tv and it is set to overdrive the set and it won't last as long as it should and then they can sell me another one.

This is the same as buying a new car and the manufacturer sold all of the cars tuned improperly so that they would not run as well as they should. They look at us as dumb old consumers that don't know any better. Why should we spend that amount of money for a tv and have to spend $200-$300 for someone to properly calibrate it as it should have been done at the factory. And don't tell me that, "my tv is not set improperly". They all are, it doesn't matter who the manufacturer is. Sony, Mitsubishi, Toshiba, Samsung, RCA, all of them. If it is a tv, it is set wrong from the factory, on purpose.

Still don't believe me about tv manufacturers. Read the reviews of any tv in one of the Audio Video magazines. When they review tvs, they always test them right out of the box to tell you how close or not, the set is to the standard. Then, they properly calibrate the set and then redo the tests to tell you how good the set can be when it is properly calibrated.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:02 pm

Don't we have an official COW interviewer?? We have to ask about the hat topic to Mr.Ford

or someone remembering these info from 80s

Indiana Wayne · Post by **Indiana Wayne** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:48 pm

Texas Raider, you CAN'T win this battle! THE HAT IS GREY! NOT BROWN!

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:10 pm

So, where is the blue suit used in the film? Was it ever mentioned or auctioned off?

It was almost certainly provided by Bermans and Nathans and returned to them after filming. I've come to find that alot of the costumes for Raiders were simply rented by Paramount. Being that it was a costume for the main character may have some precedence over where it would have ended up. Over the years both Bermans and Nathans and Paramount get rid of old inventory so who knows, they may have gotten rid of it, may still have it. Maybe it's at the LFL archives. I've been told firsthand about rack after rack of JUST Indy trilogy costumes there.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:12 am

Indiana Wayne wrote:Texas Raider, you CAN'T win this battle! THE HAT IS GREY! NOT BROWN!

We will see

Never say never

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:38 pm

erri_wan wrote:Don't we have an official COW interviewer?? We have to ask about the hat topic to Mr.Ford or someone remembering these info from 80s

To answer... yes the fedora in question was Gray....

Michaelson wrote:Problem here is we have THREE official sources of information, HJ (Richard Swales, maker of the two hats), Paramount prop department, and Western Costume.

No war, and no problem. If you see brown, you see brown. Folks have debated this for years, and will CONTINUE to debate it.....but according to those THREE official sources, it's not, but you can see brown if you want, TR.

Reminds of the good old days when folks absolutely stated with NO doubt in their minds that the original Raiders jacket was black. NO doubt. How many times did I read:

"YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME? Check the scene at the beginning when Indy spots the idol. The jacket is BLACK!!! Watch the tape!!!"

A fellow even special ordered a black lambskin based on what he saw, and convinced others to what he saw. It wasn't until Peter discovered the Indyfan forum that he corrected that misconception. Hummm. Should we believe THAT official source now? Just kidding.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:30 pm

Yes, I personally interviewed the three sources in 1985, and yes, all three told me the hats issued for the two scenes were gray, and yet no one wants to believe them . What would an interview with Ford do? It was just a hat to him, and he could have cared LESS what color it was.

Oh well, carry on...

Regards! Michaelson

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:41 pm

Michaelson wrote:Yes, I personally interviewed the three sources in 1985, and yes, all three told me the hats issued for the two scenes were gray, and yet no one wants to believe them . What would an interview with Ford do? It was just a hat to him, and he could have cared LESS what color it was.

Oh well, carry on...

Regards! Michaelson

Well i didnt know we have some trustable sources. Ok then. GREY WIN!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:57 pm

Michaelson wrote: What I TRIED to get across is that apparently all the research and phone calls that have been made at individuals expense (mine included) seem to be for absolutely nothing, as I not only had Swales tell me what he made, but Paramount prop folks in California told me that as well, as BOTH scenes using the gray hat(s) were shot in California, and therefore both located at the Paramount studios IN the prop department when I spoke to them so long ago. They were sent then to Western Costume for stock with the rest of the extra costuming not kept by Lucasfilm, and from what I learned later, were sold in the usual Western Costume inventory reduction sales that happens every few years. The maddening thing about the prop department is they only kept these things in memory, and NEVER by actual record, but this information was gathered just after the release of Temple of Doom, and therefore only a few years after the actual production of Raiders, and still a fresh production in their collective minds.

Regards! Michaelson

erri, did you miss this post I made two pages ago?

Regards! Michaelson

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:19 pm

Michaelson wrote: erri, did you miss this post I made two pages ago? Regards! Michaelson

It seems i did!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:20 pm

No problem, and completely understandable. LOTS of verbage flying around on this string. (grins)

High regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:53 pm

Get on his good side first....ask about flying. You'll be in like Flint! (grins) Regards! Michaelson

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:02 pm

So Harry.... Tell me about the length of the shoelaces on your boots.

Alabama Jones · Post by **Alabama Jones** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:06 pm

Michaelson wrote:Get on his good side first....ask about flying. You'll be in like Flint! (grins) Regards! Michaelson

So upon him showing you his helicopter or plane it would not be wise to say "What a piece of junk"!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:10 pm

No...especially if he's giving you a free ride in his helo!

It's a long walk back to the airport, especially if he refuses to land first!

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:43 pm

Michaelson wrote:Yes, I personally interviewed the three sources in 1985, and yes, all three told me the hats issued for the two scenes were gray, and yet no one wants to believe them . What would an interview with Ford do? It was just a hat to him, and he could have cared LESS what color it was.

Oh well, carry on...

Regards! Michaelson

I believe you, Michaelson. Well, I believe THIS story, anyway...

bink