British indy fans- VCR Bill

jack · Post by **jack** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:30 am

To all brits, you may already be aware of the VCR Bill, we now are 99.9%
that this bill will come into effect this october. This means after october or when the bill is past you will not be able to purchase or sell deacts or repro's

if you need a revolver or pistol or what ever GET THEM NOW WHILST YOU CAN!

best regards to all

Post by **Ken** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:32 am

Sorry I missed this - what are the details?

Ken

jack · Post by **jack** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:59 am

Indiana Ken wrote:Sorry I missed this - what are the details?

Ken

That the government are banning the sale and purchase of deactervated and replica weapons in the new violent crime reduction bill, the ownership and normal use after the ban of deact or replica guns will not be affected, just the sale and purchase..........so get them while you can.

Jack

Post by **Ken** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:13 am

So does that mean they can still be bought out of the country?

This is so ridiculous. Our country just gets worse and worse.

Ken

jack · Post by **jack** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:51 pm

Indiana Ken wrote:So does that mean they can still be bought out of the country?

This is so ridiculous. Our country just gets worse and worse.

Ken

Well that totally depends on the other countries firearm laws- unless you mean buying them outside uk and bring them in then NO.

Indiana Jimmy · Post by **Indiana Jimmy** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:57 pm

Yes, we'll be totally scr**ed after the bill comes to force.

I'm also a ww2 reenactor and I know many of my frends are buying everything they can now before everything becomes unavailable.

Off to beltring W&P show next week and going to get a Blank fire Walther P38, a PPK and a De-ac Mauser K98k...

Buy now, play later... or not at all!

jack · Post by **jack** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:10 pm

Indiana Jimmy wrote:Yes, we'll be totally scr**ed after the bill comes to force.

I'm also a ww2 reenactor and I know many of my frends are buying everything they can now before everything becomes unavailable.

Off to beltring W&P show next week and going to get a Blank fire Walther P38, a PPK and a De-ac Mauser K98k...

Buy now, play later... or not at all!

Welcome fellow re-enacter, i'm a ww2 re-enacter, luckily i've been at it a while so got a fair few guns, getting a bren and no4 soon before this ban.

Post by **Ken** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:17 pm

On the plus side I guess this means the value of any items will rocket after the bill passes meanign anythign I have will soar in price, or is selling from person to person going to be illegal too

Ken

Indiana Jimmy · Post by **Indiana Jimmy** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:04 pm

jack wrote: Welcome fellow re-enacter, i'm a ww2 re-enacter, luckily i've been at it a while so got a fair few guns, getting a bren and no4 soon before this ban.

Well, I guess your a Brit then, I'm one of them eeeevil germans... going to Beltring?

DocIndyJones · Post by **DocIndyJones** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:02 pm

Man This is why the United States is such a great country.

$\:D/$

-Doc

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:20 pm

Man thats a real shame guys.

Might I ask the reasoning behind a bill like this?

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:35 pm

You fellas have my sympathy.
I mean really...deactivated or repro firearms banned to reduce crime?
Remind me again why we need politicians?

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:18 pm

Oh, I get it...

I thought it looked like that guy had Wampa arms DocIndy.

Uh, yeah, seems kind of odd to ban sale of non shooting weapons. Isn't it the shooting ones that cause trouble?

Politicians...Bah!

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:27 pm

Violent Crime Reduction Bill, eh?? Yeah, I can see how a fake weapon could be used for a violent crime. You could actually bludgeon someone to death with a fake gun.....Man, better get rid of those fake guns, so there is nothing left in the UK to bludgeon anyone with.

Totally silly law.
Guns don't kill people, FAKE guns do.
'Blues

Glurrk · Post by **Glurrk** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:17 am

IndyBlues wrote:Violent Crime Reduction Bill, eh??

Is THAT what it stands for? I was scratching my head in bewilderment...

"They're outlawing Video Cassette Recorders? I know DVDs are pretty attractive, but this is pushing the market to a ridiculous degree!"

On a serious note, I didn't think gun violence was an issue over in the UK. I try to keep up with the news, and I never really hear about shootings over there.

RC Halliburton · Post by **RC Halliburton** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:42 am

Don't worry lads, Kalifornia will probably follow suit any day now...

)

I had a VCR run-in when departing Scotland at the end of the "Treasure of the Templars' shoot. I had a plastic replica Mauser Broomhandle holstered in my checked baggage. ( I had no difficulties on the LAX-Glascow trip, checking bags containing 4 broad swords, leather bandoliers, three crusader helmets, and the aforementioned non-gun)
I successfully crossed into the secured area at the gate, and was waiting my turn to board the aircraft when the "Will passenger "X" please approach the counter" announcement came.
The nice lady said that they had had some difficulty identifying one of the items in my bag. I asked 'The chain mail? The Knight's helmet? The sword?" She brushed it aside, and engaged in a bit of small talk, leading me to a frosted glass door.
The doors swished open as we entered, and I came face-to-face with 5 or so of Glascow's finest.
"Can I help you?" I asked. The sergeant cocked an eyebrow, and indicated a black piece of luggage on the examining table "This your bag?" he questioned. "Certainely, Officer" I replied. He glibbly flipped open the flap, revealing my leather-bound mock-mauser.
"That's plastic." I said simply. This caused them to look at one another for a moment. They asked if they could take the weapon out of the holster. I assurred them they could take the plastic gun out as it was quite safe.
I instructed them on the removal of the magazine, and indicated the piece of metal that blocked anything being discharged from the ABS plastic barrel.
The lawman said that "I should have notified the check-in desk that I was shipping a gun." I said , I'm aware that if one ships a gun, one must have it locked, unloaded and declared, but this was not a gun, it was a toy that looked like a gun. The next step was that a detective came in and said that "I should have notified the check-in desk that I was shipping a gun."
You see where this is going?
It came down to the detective calling the captain of the plane I was to travel on, and asking if he was OK taking a passenger who had a toy gun in his checked bag.
Apparenetly the captain was, because the detective hung up the phone, and told the lawman something. The lawman came to me and said that the detective said the plane captain said I could board the plane, but next time, I really "should have notified the check-in desk that I was shipping a gun."

Well, I must say it really made for an invigorating morning flight. Plus when I got on the plane, every eye was looking at me, because an announcement had been made about a "Baggage Irregularity"

Good times.

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:50 am

[

quote="DocIndyJones"]Man This is why the Unied States is such a great country.

$\:D/$

Are you under the impression that we're not headed in the same direction?

have a nice day.

Post by **Ken** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:44 am

RC Halliburton wrote:Don't worry lads, Kalifornia will probably follow suit any day now... )

I had a VCR run-in when departing Scotland at the end of the "Treasure of the Templars' shoot. I had a plastic replica Mauser Broomhandle holstered in my checked baggage. ( I had no difficulties on the LAX-Glascow trip, checking bags containing 4 broad swords, leather bandoliers, three crusader helmets, and the aforementioned non-gun)
I successfully crossed into the secured area at the gate, and was waiting my turn to board the aircraft when the "Will passenger "X" please approach the counter" announcement came.
The nice lady said that they had had some difficulty identifying one of the items in my bag. I asked 'The chain mail? The Knight's helmet? The sword?" She brushed it aside, and engaged in a bit of small talk, leading me to a frosted glass door.
The doors swished open as we entered, and I came face-to-face with 5 or so of Glascow's finest.
"Can I help you?" I asked. The sergeant cocked an eyebrow, and indicated a black piece of luggage on the examining table "This your bag?" he questioned. "Certainely, Officer" I replied. He glibbly flipped open the flap, revealing my leather-bound mock-mauser.
"That's plastic." I said simply. This caused them to look at one another for a moment. They asked if they could take the weapon out of the holster. I assurred them they could take the plastic gun out as it was quite safe.
I instructed them on the removal of the magazine, and indicated the piece of metal that blocked anything being discharged from the ABS plastic barrel.
The lawman said that "I should have notified the check-in desk that I was shipping a gun." I said , I'm aware that if one ships a gun, one must have it locked, unloaded and declared, but this was not a gun, it was a toy that looked like a gun. The next step was that a detective came in and said that "I should have notified the check-in desk that I was shipping a gun."
You see where this is going?
It came down to the detective calling the captain of the plane I was to travel on, and asking if he was OK taking a passenger who had a toy gun in his checked bag.
Apparenetly the captain was, because the detective hung up the phone, and told the lawman something. The lawman came to me and said that the detective said the plane captain said I could board the plane, but next time, I really "should have notified the check-in desk that I was shipping a gun."

Well, I must say it really made for an invigorating morning flight. Plus when I got on the plane, every eye was looking at me, because an announcement had been made about a "Baggage Irregularity"

Good times.

Paul

I am glad you and your cargo made it home safely. I think this kind of security is probably a knee-jerk reaction to the events which took place in London, though the general fear of anything that looks like a gun issue has been brewing for ages.

Ken

jack · Post by **jack** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:17 pm

Ken- do not even think of selling under the counter it is illegal, any form of sale or purchase of deact or replica weapons after the bill will be breaking the law and also an arrestable offence, nope your items will not go up in price, if anything they'll go down in price so the dealers can offload there kit before the ban- and yes i'am a brit

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:47 pm

Texas Raider wrote:[
quote="DocIndyJones"]Man This is why the Unied States is such a great country.

$\:D/$

Are you under the impression that we're not headed in the same direction?

have a nice day.

Sometimes I worry that we are.

But I'll tell you what, if the US Government ever tries that they will have another civil war on their hand in many parts of the country. I kid you not, people around here would thumb their noses at the government and tell them, "if they want them to come get them." Man it would really hit the fan.

All of you guys in the UK better look out. They be comming after your rubber band guns next!

Sorry, I just had to.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:42 pm

J_Weaver wrote:Sometimes I worry that we are. But I'll tell you what, if the US Government ever tries that they will have another civil war on their hand in many parts of the country. I kid you not, people around here would thumb their noses at the government and tell them, "if they want them to come get them." Man it would really hit the fan.

that and support the NRA.

Indiana Jimmy · Post by **Indiana Jimmy** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:31 am

J_Weaver wrote: All of you guys in the UK better look out. They be comming after your rubber band guns next! Sorry, I just had to.

The funny thing is, if your rubber band gun looks like a real one - THEN THEY ARE!!!!

I'm stocking up now...

jack · Post by **jack** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:48 am

Indiana Jimmy wrote:
J_Weaver wrote: All of you guys in the UK better look out. They be comming after your rubber band guns next! Sorry, I just had to.

The funny thing is, if your rubber band gun looks like a real one - THEN THEY ARE!!!!

I'm stocking up now...

Join the club, i think i may go to malvern in september get everything then

Indiana Jimmy · Post by **Indiana Jimmy** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:58 am

jack wrote:
Join the club, i think i may go to malvern in september get everything then

Well, I'm off to Beltring War & Peace show next week...
Shopping includes...

Browning HP (Blank firer)
P38 (Blank Firer)
PPK (Blank Firer)
Mauser K98k (De-ac)
And maybe if I have the cash left a Bren or an MG34....

jack · Post by **jack** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:05 pm

Indiana Jimmy wrote:
jack wrote:
Join the club, i think i may go to malvern in september get everything then
Well, I'm off to Beltring War & Peace show next week...
Shopping includes...

Browning HP (Blank firer)
P38 (Blank Firer)
PPK (Blank Firer)
Mauser K98k (De-ac)
And maybe if I have the cash left a Bren or an MG34....

I'm getting a bren mate

Post by **Ken** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:01 pm

jack wrote:Ken- do not even think of selling under the counter it is illegal, any form of sale or purchase of deact or replica weapons after the bill will be breaking the law and also an arrestable offence, nope your items will not go up in price, if anything they'll go down in price so the dealers can offload there kit before the ban- and yes i'am a brit

Man this *****! I'm gonna have to check out a copy of this bill

Ken

jack · Post by **jack** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:23 pm

Indiana Ken wrote:
jack wrote:Ken- do not even think of selling under the counter it is illegal, any form of sale or purchase of deact or replica weapons after the bill will be breaking the law and also an arrestable offence, nope your items will not go up in price, if anything they'll go down in price so the dealers can offload there kit before the ban- and yes i'am a brit
Man this *****! I'm gonna have to check out a copy of this bill

Ken

Well its true believe me, theres a online petition against it, like this bent labour government will take a bling bit of notice

Kris · Post by **Kris** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:07 pm

Let me get this straight ..

In order to secure the UK, they want to forbid the purchase of all NON WORKING guns ?

Henry Jones Sr. · Post by **Henry Jones Sr.** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:25 pm

Looks like it. Check this out: http://www.basc.org.uk/content/0610_vcr_bill. Wow....

This website is run by the British Association for Shooting & Conservation (BASC), founded in 1908 as the Wildfowlers’ Association of Great Britain and Ireland, and also incorporating the Gamekeepers’ Association of the United Kingdom. According to their site, "BASC is the UK’s largest shooting association with over 122,000 members and is a representative body for sporting shooting in the UK. It aims to promote and protect sporting shooting, the responsible use of firearms and the well being of the countryside throughout the UK and overseas."

And, from a different point of view, http://www.gun-control-network.org/CI06.htm. I'm not stepping into it; I'll let folks make their own individual call....

Regards,

Henry Jones, Sr.

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:30 pm

Feraud wrote:Remind me again why we need politicians?

Legend has it that Sparks Fisk (Father of Whiskey, Grandfather of Renderking) used to rant about how much he hated politicians. For his famous Halloween parties, he used to set up plywood cut outs with charactures of politicians painted on them and charges a nickel for folks to go up and throw their empty liquor bottles at them.

Keep in mind, this was during Prohibition... many of those empty bottles were actually "Contraband" and proof that you were complicit in an illegal act.

Someone asked my grandfather: "Come on, Fisk, They have to be good for SOMETHING!" He replied: "Can't grind them up into Dog-Food, mutts turn their noses up at the mere smell of that meat..."

He coined the phrase: "Politicians pass laws to punish the innocent for the crimes committed by the guilty." And that Loopholes were clear signs of their hypocrisy, designed in for themselves to commit crimes against the spirit of the laws they passed once they left office.

Sparks Fisk was a gentleman, drunkard and philosopher long before his time.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:03 pm

To all:

Thanks for keeping this topic civil. At the same time please remember that is IndyGear.

I actually have a lot to say on this particular topic. I encourage everyone intersted to come visit at Glocktalk.com. The site has a wide variety of rooms that is open to anyone and everyone who is intersted in talking about gun. One in particular is their Gun-Control Issues forum.

Cheers,
Pyroxene

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson

jack · Post by **jack** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:31 pm

[quote="Pyroxene"]To all:

Thanks for keeping this topic civil. At the same time please remember that is IndyGear.

I actually have a lot to say on this particular topic. I encourage everyone intersted to come visit at Glocktalk.com. The site has a wide variety of rooms that is open to anyone and everyone who is intersted in talking about gun. One in particular is their Gun-Control Issues forum.

Cheers,
Pyroxene

If i've diverted from normal topics i apoligies but uk fans must be warned to get what guns they want before the ban

ok cheers

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:39 pm

What Pyroxene said. This must be the most courteous, well-disciplined gun control thread yet.
However, gentlemen, we must remember one thing. I seriously doubt that anyone here is the reason for outlawing replicas or implementing gun control laws. As for bashing the politicians - they are not doing this to make things harder for lawful, civilised people!

Indyfans are not the problem! You know very well what kind of individuals and their activities that cause legislation like this... destroying our way of life, if you will...
As a prop collector, I'm not very fond of any outlawing of replica firearms. I still have a few Solo blasters I want to build, so better get my Denixes fast! Found some cheap ones in the UK...

Skippy · Post by **Skippy** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:58 pm

Guy's most of you know my job, so I think I'm qualified to clear up a few of the unclear issues here.

Firstly for those not in the know, a bit of history.

Hungerford Massacre
Lone gunman went on a killing spree around the small town of Hungerford. Can't remember how many killed, including the gunman, who shot himself. Most of the killing done with a semi-auto AK47.
Response = UK Goverment bans semi-auto rifles/machineguns/longarm, etc.

Dunbalane Massacre
Lone gunman enters a school & kills a number of primary school (under 11's) children and teachers. Again I can't remember the numbers. Weapons used were legally held handguns.
Response = UK Goverment bans handguns.

In both instances owners of banned weapons were given compensation for surrender, all be it minimal ammounts.

This leaves legal firearms in the UK consisting of - shotguns (restricted to 3 shots on a Shotgun License / large magazine capacity on a Firearms License(harder to get)) bolt-action or hand cocking rifles; black powder weapons including pistols.

Does the UK have a gun problem?
Yes. But not with the major presence of real firearms.

The weapon supplies come from the re-activation of de-activated collectors weapons freely available without license or registration. These weapons are then carried & used by criminals.

Re-activation is done by illegal firearms factories, which have even resorted to machining their own barrels to fit on toy Derringer pistols, to fire .22 ammo.

Ammunition is also a problem & typically blank ammo fitted with de-ac ammo bullets is the norm. These things are not accurate, safe, or reliable. But if you shove it in someones belly at close range & pull the trigger, IF it goes off, it kills just the same.

Certain cultures within the UK see the possession & carriage of these weapons (handguns) as a status symbol & fashion accessory, as well as the tool of certain trades.

A consiquence of this is my colleagues & I at our station are required to wear overt body armour at all times, because of the high number of firearm incidents we deal with.

Where these re-ac's can't be obtained, replica firearms are being used & carried to commit crimes.

This also causes significant problems for police firearms officers, who faced with someone carrying these weapons are forced to make a split-second decision on shoot / no shoot. Where criminals have been shot & killed carrying replica weapons, the police officers are typically removed from operational police duties to fly a desk for an average of 4 years while the investigation drags on, with findings followed by the criminal's families appeals to higher courts, etc.; calls for public enquiries & untold stress for the officers involved & their families.

The banning of these weapons is better for us in the police, but I do share the frustrations of collectors & re-enactors. A better approach may have been to license re-enactors weapons.

In response to whether people will sell their privately held de-ac's 'under the counter' to other collectors, I believe this will happen & be fairly ignored. There is no real means to police it & there are so many de-ac weapons legal held with no record of who has them, it cannot be known who had what before the ban.

Hope that helps.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:33 pm

Renderking Fisk wrote: Sparks Fisk was a gentleman, drunkard and philosopher long before his time.

We need more men like that today.

I never see 'tools' as the problem. Gun, knife, stick, belt, necktie, whatever. The problem is the person wielding the item. I grew up in a sporting household. There were fishing rods, bows and firearms in the home. Everything was kept in its proper place. The adults did not run around drunk threatening anyone with weapons. The children never got into fights then tried to shoot or stab their siblings.

If a city or country has a problem with violence then they should examine what the problem really is. Taking away a gun does not take away the desire to commit violence. It must be very hard for a city to admit its social policies are doing more harm than good. Politicians need to have more guts to step up and act responsibly towards their constituents. That is what we elect them for.

Post by **Ken** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:31 pm

Skippy wrote: This also causes significant problems for police firearms officers, who faced with someone carrying these weapons are forced to make a split-second decision on shoot / no shoot. Where criminals have been shot & killed carrying replica weapons, the police officers are typically removed from operational police duties to fly a desk for an average of 4 years while the investigation drags on, with findings followed by the criminal's families appeals to higher courts, etc.; calls for public enquiries & untold stress for the officers involved & their families.

This is the real problem. People just need to realise that brandishing an offensive weapon in public (offensive weapon being what the police consider offensive in the cirumstances) has consequences and if that weapon happens to resemble a gun then those consequences could be severe.

Honestly I think its so harsh to come down hard on police officers in this situation. And banning replica guns will have NO effect on this - all it takes is a water pistol for this to happen.

In other countries police will deal with these kind of situations very strongly - you have a weapon you put it down or you get taken down. Now I am not one to advocate Big Brother government but in situations like this there needs to be common sense.

Ken

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:08 am

Skippy,

If we are involved in a departmental shooting, the investigation typically takes a year or more, but four years? That's crazy. I feel for you guys. I thought we were slow. Over here, four years would be 20% of your career.

The talk of crimes commited with a fake gun reminds me of something that happened a few years ago. We had a rash of citizen armed robberies at a certain ATM machine. Despite our best efforts, the suspect always got away.

One day, we got a call of an attempted citizen armed robbery at that ATM machine. Arriving at the scene, we found a very large man that stated that he was the one that called the police.

He told us that he had just gotten his money from the machine, when the suspect appeared from some nearby bushes, displayed a handgun, and demanded the victim's money. The victim looked at the gun and told the suspect, "Dude, that's a fake gun", and proceeded to pummel the suspect in an attempt to display his displeasure at the suspect's dastardly deed.

The victim assured us that he did his very best to hold the suspect on the scene until we arrived. Unfortunately, while the victim was calling for our assistance, the suspect made good his escape. All that remained at the scene of the crime, was a fairly large portion of the suspect's blood and some tattered remnants of his clothing in the parking lot.

I don't recall us ever having anymore robberies at that ATM. I can't for life of me figure out, why?

jack · Post by **jack** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:19 pm

Skippy wrote:Guy's most of you know my job, so I think I'm qualified to clear up a few of the unclear issues here.

Firstly for those not in the know, a bit of history.

Hungerford Massacre
Lone gunman went on a killing spree around the small town of Hungerford. Can't remember how many killed, including the gunman, who shot himself. Most of the killing done with a semi-auto AK47.
Response = UK Goverment bans semi-auto rifles/machineguns/longarm, etc.

Dunbalane Massacre
Lone gunman enters a school & kills a number of primary school (under 11's) children and teachers. Again I can't remember the numbers. Weapons used were legally held handguns.
Response = UK Goverment bans handguns.

In both instances owners of banned weapons were given compensation for surrender, all be it minimal ammounts.

This leaves legal firearms in the UK consisting of - shotguns (restricted to 3 shots on a Shotgun License / large magazine capacity on a Firearms License(harder to get)) bolt-action or hand cocking rifles; black powder weapons including pistols.

Does the UK have a gun problem?
Yes. But not with the major presence of real firearms.

The weapon supplies come from the re-activation of de-activated collectors weapons freely available without license or registration. These weapons are then carried & used by criminals.

Re-activation is done by illegal firearms factories, which have even resorted to machining their own barrels to fit on toy Derringer pistols, to fire .22 ammo.

Ammunition is also a problem & typically blank ammo fitted with de-ac ammo bullets is the norm. These things are not accurate, safe, or reliable. But if you shove it in someones belly at close range & pull the trigger, IF it goes off, it kills just the same.

Certain cultures within the UK see the possession & carriage of these weapons (handguns) as a status symbol & fashion accessory, as well as the tool of certain trades.

A consiquence of this is my colleagues & I at our station are required to wear overt body armour at all times, because of the high number of firearm incidents we deal with.

Where these re-ac's can't be obtained, replica firearms are being used & carried to commit crimes.

This also causes significant problems for police firearms officers, who faced with someone carrying these weapons are forced to make a split-second decision on shoot / no shoot. Where criminals have been shot & killed carrying replica weapons, the police officers are typically removed from operational police duties to fly a desk for an average of 4 years while the investigation drags on, with findings followed by the criminal's families appeals to higher courts, etc.; calls for public enquiries & untold stress for the officers involved & their families.

The banning of these weapons is better for us in the police, but I do share the frustrations of collectors & re-enactors. A better approach may have been to license re-enactors weapons.

In response to whether people will sell their privately held de-ac's 'under the counter' to other collectors, I believe this will happen & be fairly ignored. There is no real means to police it & there are so many de-ac weapons legal held with no record of who has them, it cannot be known who had what before the ban.

Hope that helps.

With all due respect mate i do not think that this bill will reduce crime at all

get the people with the live firing illegal weapons not us collecters

i have deacts like lots of others

do i carry one in my waistband as i walk down the street??
no

do i use it inappropriately/
no- the only time they're in use is at events (re-enactments that is)

Would i threaten someone with one of my guns to make them think they were in danger
no way, never

has the ban of pistols and revolvers decreased gun crime???

Before i cause offence this is not aimed at anyone on this forum mainly our superb labour government

I also see the problems the police face with replica firearms but why not ban bb guns???

These are readily available at post offices sweet shops anywhere which really amazes and annoys me greatly

Its the same old case of the lawful tax payer getting a bad do due to the b£$£$£%s that totally ignore the law and have total and utter dis-respect for the laws laid down, i don't like ANY of our firearms laws but i don't go breaking the law, i may not like them but i respect the fact this is what i have to abide by so be it, thats what i do and all re-enacters/collecters alike

All i'm thankful is that we can still keep our deact, blank firers ect

If only the government realised that the main users of these are totally lawful and use them for there correct purpose not using them as a sybol of "mr big man on the block" or look how cool i'am i'll go and threaten to shoot someone

look how big i'am :evil:

Skippy · Post by **Skippy** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:55 pm

With all due respect mate i do not think that this bill will reduce crime at all

get the people with the live firing illegal weapons not us collecters

& with all due respect I agree with you

That's the current, we can do anything we want, goverment we have at the moment. I didn't vote for them, although they are the very best right-wing goverment I have ever seen

Persecution of collectors & re-enactors is easy for the goverment to en-act & in the process they can say, "Look at the these terrible guns & replicas we have taken off the street, that could have been used to commit crime & scare people" & look like they've done someithing.

It's spin. It's s***.

PS. I light of the info this thread has highlighted, I will be trotting off to Military Odessey over the bank holiday weekend to try & pick myself up a certain de-activated gun very close to the hearts of members here

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:24 am

Just as a note....

I know we are supposed to discuss "gear only" on these forums. However, seeing as how we have a fellow member shooting an Indy related film, I feel this thread is relevant.

With all due respect, please keep this civil and respectful.

Carry on...

Pyroxene

Skippy · Post by **Skippy** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:42 am

OK, rather than just shooting from the hip on this, I've had a look at the VCR bill. See here:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 006010.pdf

& guess what? It no where mentions de-activated firearms in the proposed legislation.

What the bill deals with is Realistic Immitation Firearms (RIF). Unfortunately the adobe doc won't let me cut & past here, but scroll down & have a read.

If I've got it right (& will happy conceed if I haven't!) this legislation will only affect blank firing replicas, realistic replicas like those made by the Machine Gun Corp of Japan, or Denix (AKA Mausers for SW blasters) & perhaps even airsoft weapons.

Manufacture, importation, sale & conversion of anthing to appear like a RIF will be outlawed.

So an airsoft MP5 machinegun would be banned, unless it was clearly identifiable as a replica - ie. it had an orange tip. But if you painted that tip to make it appear more realistic you would commit an offence.
Similairly, if you took a realistic looking water pistol of a Browning Hi-power in green plastic & painted it black to look real, you would also commit an offence.

Ken's friend with his immitation Mauser in his checked bagage would also commit an offence, because he was effectively importing the RIF into the country.

Sci-fi blasters should not be affected (AKA a Stormtrooper blaster made by MR) as they are not representations of exsisting real world firearms & this is a specified excemption. If you stripped the blaster tho' to make it look like a Sterling submachine gun again tho', you would commit an offence.

This makes more sense to me, as the conversion of a deactived weapon back to a fireable weapon is an offence covered by exsisting firearms legislation (ie. it's now a REAL gun & would require a license to possess).

Equally semi-auto & full auto blank firing weapons as used by re-enactors to my knowledge require a Section 5 Firearms License in the UK already.

De-activated weapons, proof-marked as de-activated, sensibly carried & used & certificated as de-activated are unaffected by the legislation, as they are not by definition a realistic immitation firearm, but a real gun de-activated from being useable. & provided you don't point it at a policeman, or your neighbour in an arguement, or walk down the street with an AK47 slung across your back while your out shopping, you should fall foul of the exsisting laws to deal with this.

It seems whoever is propogating the rumour that de-activated weapons are affected by this bill, is out to scam collectors into buying in a hurry, creating a false seller market.

I stand by to be corrected

Post by **Ken** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:22 pm

This makes no sense - so you cant have toy guns but you can have a real, albeit deactivated, gun? Which is going to look more realistic... hmm I wonder.

One thing for sure, this is gonna **** for making films.

Ken

Skippy · Post by **Skippy** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:48 pm

Ken, you could have a toy gun. It would just require having an orange barrel tip or the like so it could be easily identified as a replica.

Honestly, I think alot of people will still be getting their replicas with orange tips, etc. & painting them for display in their own homes, although that doesn't help you for films!

Most film companies employ armourers, who to my knowledge have some form of firearms license, but I'm guessing that's not so much the case with fan films?

We deal with filming in the street requests in our office as well, so next time one rings up I'll have a chat with their armourer & see what the score is & how this new bill affects things & get back to you Ken

Post by **Ken** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:57 pm

Thanks Skippy. I truly appreciate that

Ken

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:25 pm

I think that bill will in no way affect the criminals it is supposed to.
Why bother?

To ban something that looks like a firearm? They should pass a bill to imprison people that look like criminals...

Here is my own VCR(Violent Criminal Reduction) proposal. R.I.C.101, realistic imitation criminals...! Anyone walking around looking like they could commit a crime will be picked up for the 'apparent' offense!

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:43 pm

Skippy wrote:Ken, you could have a toy gun. It would just require having an orange barrel tip or the like so it could be easily identified as a replica.

So what's stopping a potential criminal from painting the tip of a real gun orange so as to try to fake someone out into thinking it's fake and then KaPOW, it's too late?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:53 pm

ITG,

They really don't have to worry about it. Most criminals aren't smart enough to think of that. If criminals were all that smart, we wouldn't catch them.

jack · Post by **jack** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:54 am

Mr Skippy

i agree with you 100%

However i have myself read the vcr bill, and contacted local mp's and they have told me ANYTHING whicg looks like a realistic firearm the sale of which will be banned

i hope this is wrong and it only affects replicas blank firers ect

Oh well we'll soon find out in October

Skippy · Post by **Skippy** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:42 pm

jack wrote:However i have myself read the vcr bill, and contacted local mp's and they have told me ANYTHING whicg looks like a realistic firearm the sale of which will be banned

Well firstly, most law courts, never mind MP's don't full understand the legislation they are dealing with. I had to explain a section law to a District Judge this morning in open court, so he understood what he was imposing on the defendant.

But the devil is as always in the detail & as you have just pointed out, this bill will affect anything that looks like a realistic firearm, NOT what already IS a real firearm, de-activated or not. Make sense?

ITG - Now your thinking too much & as Buffle says, criminals don't think too much

Post by **Ken** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:14 pm

So... I know this is probably a given, but this means also that blank firing ammo is going to dissappear as well.

Now we can keep our blank firers, so we should be stock piling the ammo, right?

Ken

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