Some Herbert Johnson questions...

JohnNdy · Post by **JohnNdy** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 5:24 am

As I was waiting for the bus today, I began to think about Indygear as usual and the topic of original gear vendors crossed my mind. I realized I had an original w&g Mk VII, a Wested jacket, Alden 405s, the Noel Howard shirt...all of these items from the ORIGINAL vendors that supplied the gear for the film...but my hat fell short. Not that I really care, I love my Feds...and I don't so much mind that all my gear isn't from the original vendors (and I use this term loosley owing to the fact that vendors have changed styles, materials, subcontractors etc...)...I just thought that it was cool to think about the prospect of owning gear that all had the same "Made By" tags on them as the stuff Harrison Ford wore. So, I come back to the hat. I know Whipwarrior has an HJ and loves it, I know the general consensus is that Mr. Swales is a nasty bloke, and I think I know that Swales isn't selling them anymore...is that the case? I do realize they pop up on ebay from time to time, but I thought I would see where the HJ stands now that we have the Optimo. Other than being the "original" hat...would it still be worth trying to pick one up? What is the felt like? Does it shape easily? Questions, questions, questions for all you HJ experts out there...

-John

West · Post by **West** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 5:32 am

Well I from what I understand HJ does still sell the Indy style hat, but they're waiting for more "Poets" to come in so they CAN make the Indy hats. Whipwarrior is one of those rare HJs I know of that came out well. The major appeal of HJ is simply is that it's the original, from the original maker, and is the right color (both hat and ribbon). It's a full rabbit fur felt hat with no beaver (since beaver is an endangered species in the UK, they can't be used for hats) and is a Borsalino in reality (like the PB Michaelson which is made form a Borsalino) which means it's top quality felt and probably easily shaped.

Hope this helps,
West

P.S. I've also been out of circulation from Indygearing (is that a word?) so I could have missed out on some info...so I could be wrong...

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 5:40 am

...and I think I know that Swales isn't selling them anymore...is that the case

Dakota Ellison just bought a new one, which looks absolutely great in my opinion. It has the LC bash, so if you want it Raiders styled, you might order it open crowned, but after the bashing tutorial you put up, this can't be a problem, huh?

Here's the link: http://www.indygear.com/community/forum ... highlight=

According to how fast they work at HJ: VERY VERY SLOW. I ordered a new ribbon more than TWO MONTH AGO and still nothing:evil:

I don't know how the felt is, but if you read the Fedora-FAQs on the main page, it seemes to be real nice.

Regards,
Marc

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 6:52 am

I know the general consensus is that Mr. Swales is a nasty bloke.

You've got to remember that HJ is part of the old English class system (that is supposed to be defunct) they consider dealing us lowly fans as a step down from their usual cliental like the Duke of Edinburgh etc.

I don't understand why because they could make a killing it they decided to try and recreate the Raiders fedora they made for the film. If there’s one thing I have noticed about us gearheads is that accuracy is one of the top if not top qualities we look for in our gear.

morgan

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:10 am

I have found the Herbert Johnson fedora to be a very comfortable, durable, and stylish hat, and it looks great with my Wested leather jacket. A brand new Poet is very dark brown, and blends perfectly with the color of the ribbon. It seems to have lightened up after several years of use, and now has a very nice contrast, much like the bridge hat from Temple of Doom and the fedora in Last Crusade.
The felt is extremely soft, and shapes relatively easily with hot kettle steam. The front crown readily accepts most any style bash that you may put into it, and when the felt dries, it holds its shape remarkably well. Inside is a quality-made white satin lining that never loses its sheen, and the headband appears to be made from a thin, orange-toned leather, embossed with the Herbert Johnson logo and address in shiny gold lettering. The Poet is a simple and functional hat, superbly crafted by consummate professionals of the highest order.

-Dale

http://www.geocities.com/pangaeascape/poet.html

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:14 am

Dale, that hat looks so good! There's something about the dimensional cut that none of the other makers has captured -- it looks more elongated and straight on the sides, not rounded. Don't know about the bow, though. I've yet to see an accurate Raiders bow from one of our hatmakers...

West, I didn't realize that the British beaver was an endangered species.

Were they hunted down by the White Witch for befriending the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve?

Ryusui · Post by **Ryusui** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:28 am

Hey folks, true newbie here.

I'm just getting started on an Indy kick, and was hoping you folks would be of some help to a kid like me.

I've been looking around this site, board and talking to people at other places, and have gotten some great info regarding what I should by for my tastes.
But while I know what shirt, pants and jacket I want, I am a bit confused as to the fedora. HJ made them for the movie, but are the current hats made the same way from the same materials?
I've also heard that with some details, you might not gt exactly what you want. And if I'm shelling out $300+ for a hat, I want it to be done right.

If HJ is just too big of a risk, what would you consider to be the best of the best?
Thanks for any help and info you guys might pass along to me.

West · Post by **West** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:33 am

schwammy wrote:
West, I didn't realize that the British beaver was an endangered species.

Were they hunted down by the White Witch for befriending the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve?

Um...No. I once had a nice hour long chat with Mr Swales about the felt quality of the Poet and he mentioned that since beavers are rare find in EUROPE period it's considered endangered and it is illegal to have felt that contains beaver in it. Since UK happens to be in Europe, or at least last time I checked, it's endangered there also.

Later,
West

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:09 am

I don't believe we have beavers at all in England, We're an island after all and I doubt that any European beavers would want to brave the channel crossing to set up home here.

morgan

West · Post by **West** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:11 am

Hehe...well you never know...might run into an over achiever someday...hehe...

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 6:35 am

MY HJ cost $273, total. Check the rate of exchange for 165 pounds. Yesterday it was $256. Dale, I know you've answered this before, but what is the crown height on your Poet? Unbashed.

indy_guitarist · Post by **indy_guitarist** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 8:23 am

well, i love my HJ. i'll tell you, if you want "the hat" right out of the box, forget it. mr. swales made them 20 years ago and doesn't really remember how to shape them. i looked at mine and though, awesome, perfect, color, ribbon and elt, wrong shape. that's totally fine with me because i don't think anyone can make their hat look raiders or any movie for that matter right out of the box. the movie hats are just too beat up and that's half of the way they look the way they do, as indiana_dan has shown us with the patented "kick the @#$% out of the hat method." The hat is top quality, a borsalino. it really was "the hat" for me. when i got mine it was only 225, that was about 5 months ago. and contrary to popular belief, mr. swales was a real nice guy. i think mainly beacuse i didn't call him with the prospectus of a gear head. after all, crazy meticulous attention to detail types really are annoying unless your surrounded by them ie. indygear.com . i just told him i wanted a poet and he said allright, would you like the raiders bash and i said yes sir. just be polite and don't say, i want the front right side of the brim to be 2 5/8 " and @#$% like that. if your that meticulous, go to PB, he loves that kind of work. mr. swales sent me the hat in about 1 1/2 weeks. if they're in stock, they ship almost immeaditly. hope this helps. this is "the hat", it just needs a little personalization. the colors and dimensions are spot on, though, to ford anway.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 8:31 am

Well, it is tall, from the looks of his pics. 6 inches? Fedora

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:04 am

This how my HJ looked right out of the box:

A basic center dent and shallow front bashes.

AppalachiaJones · Post by **AppalachiaJones** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:05 pm

Does HJ have a website? I came across a link to www.herbertjohnson.co.uk or something like that but it didn't work, at least when I tried it. Or do you just have to call Swales to inquire?

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:54 pm

Okay, the very front crown of my hat measures exactly 4 1/2 inches tall. When I punched the top of the hat outward, the height measurement is exactly 5 inches. Regarding the brim of my hat, I'm not sure I understand Fedora's question, but the edge all the way around is shaved flat. I've added new photos to my hat page so you can see what I mean.

-Dale

http://www.geocities.com/pangaeascape/poet.html

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 6:02 pm

5 inches??!!!!

If so, that is the most deceptive group of hat photos that I have ever seen. Mr Swales said the original height was 6 inches. Something just doesn't sound right about all of this. No surprise, as we are getting used to the various stories.

regards, Fedora

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 6:37 pm

Great Cairo bash. I know you patterned it after the shot of Indy being pestered by the beggers while he's waiting for the truck to get closer. That's a hat with character.

geordie jones · Post by **geordie jones** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 6:59 pm

Excellent pics, and a very fine hat indeed. I might have to go down and take a look at the Herbert Johnson establishment while in London.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 7:47 pm

I agree with everyone that the hat does look taller in those pictures. I think it's a matter of forced perspective and the angle from which I shot the photos. I promise you that the exact measurement is 5 inches on the needle, no more, no less.
Thank you for the compliments. I like to think that my hat has character! It just needs a little desert dust, which seems to be a rare element in these parts. Besides, I can't think of any dust worthier to coat my fedora with than that from the deserts of Jordan. Unfortunately, that's not an option at this point, so it will have to wait. I would, however, be willing to pay somebody to mail me a plastic bag full of desert dust from that region, should they happen to be journeying there in the near future. (I'm completely serious about this).

-Dale

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 6:39 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, Dale but you wear a 6 7/8 or 6 3/4, don't you? _'s HJ letter states that a 7 3/8 is a 6 inch crown, so sizes through 7 5/8 are 6". So, between 6 3/4 to 7 3/8, there must be a one inch graduation. Perhaps Ford's hat was a 5 1/2 or 5 3/4 inch crown for his size 7 1/4. How's that for pickin at the nit?

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:13 am

It's a 6 and 7/8.

MK · Post by MK » Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:01 pm

Dale you have the coolest HJ I have ever seen. If they all looked like that, I would be ALL over it.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:27 pm

THANKS!!!

I just hope that I never outgrow it, because I don't know how I'd ever find a replacement. Knowing me, I would fly to London and visit Herbert Johnson hatters in person with my current fedora in-hand, and demand them to craft me a new one in the exact same dimensions while I personally supervised them. At which point they called security to toss me out of their store remains to be seen.

-Dale

P.S.- And yes, I am actually psychotic enough to do that.

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 12:31 am

Dale, if you do ever outgrow it and need a buyer, let me know. I wear a 6 7/8 (I believe)...anyway, I know it's a 55 on the Akruba chart.

TheOther Jones · Post by **TheOther Jones** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:12 am

Count me in, it's my size as well!
Dale, be a good sport and share with us

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:49 am

TheOther Jones wrote:Count me in, it's my size as well!
Dale, be a good sport and share with us

That'd be one well-traveled hat if we shared it...Georgia, to Texas, to Poland, back to Texas, back to Poland, back to Texas...and so on.

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 11:25 pm

Just to relate back to the first post in this string, today it was chilly enough to put the ol' Wested on, but for the first time it was with an HJ Poet on my head. The only thing I don't have that's authentic is the trousers. Oh yeah, and the whip. It's a JS, not a DM.

JohnNdy · Post by **JohnNdy** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:45 pm

Man! I want an HJ now

!

-John

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:02 pm

That’s the poet! It looks just like the Fed Deluxe from the HatsDirect site. A real beauty

.

morgan

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:50 pm

The Fed Deluxe is a tad darker than the HJ.

The HJ has a narrower crown. The Fed's ribbon is practically the same color, just a little shinier.

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Sat Oct 19, 2002 6:07 am

I think that proves what a quality hat the Fed Deluxe is, I must say I can hardly tell the difference between the two. You have two beautiful hats there

...

can I have one!

morgan

Indiana_Nate · Post by **Indiana_Nate** » Sat Oct 19, 2002 10:15 am

Hey guys, I haven't posted in awhile but after reading all this HJ talk I had to chime in.....I'll soon be recieving the Herbert Johnson of Lee Keppler. I've been in search of one for awhile now and when this opportunity arose I jumped on it and after reading these posts discussing the more positive points of an HJ, rather than the customer service and occasional bad eggs. Please let me know your feedback on this investment as I'm curious to know what you all think!

Regards,
Indy Nate

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Sat Oct 19, 2002 12:37 pm

The HJ I received has a bad problem with taper. It had a kick to the side and back that Joe Jr. took out. I just looked at it and it's starting to come back. QC is something of a hit and miss with HJ's.

Just my $0.02

Pyro.

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Sun Oct 20, 2002 12:08 pm

"A kick to the side". What does that mean? Joe Jr. reblocked it and the "kick" came back?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Oct 20, 2002 12:48 pm

And how long did it take the taper to come back after it was reblocked? Sounds like that felt really wants to return to the original cone shape. The question is, what would cause that to happen? Felt quality, or improper reblocking? I would venture to guess that the best way to do a reblock is to let the hat completely dry on the block. That is the way that I would do it anyway.

Then again, perhaps high quality felt can be instantly reblocked and it won't taper as it dries completely, off of the block. I don't know for sure. I have a hunch that the shape of the original block, the one that formed the original hat, may add some strong memory to the felt. So much so that the hat as it shrinks in normal wear, tries to return to this original block before it trys to return to the cone. Makes sense, but this may not be what is happening. Any other theories? Fedora

fedoralover · Post by **fedoralover** » Sun Oct 20, 2002 1:01 pm

Although I've never held an HJ in my hands, I've seen numerous pics and while some looked great, there seemed to be inconsistancy in the crown block, some appeared to be very tapered. That's one of the main reasons I got another Optimo instead of an HJ. Having the original hat from the movies is very appealing, but if it doesn't look like the screen version, then it loses it's appeal to me. I wish they were consistant, because they are cheaper than the Optimo.

fedoralover

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:22 am

When I get back into the office I will show post some pics. It's the same hat we see Joe Jr. block during the Texas Summit. It does seem that it wants to return to it's cone shape. It's does, however, have a great bash with the center dent and front bashes. Just the walls of the crown want to collapes in a little.

It's intersting, however, on the right person, you don't even notice it. I might send it back to Joe Jr. sometime in April or May and let him reblock it again. Maybe at the same time, I will order a PBMB too. No more car payments.

Indiana_Nate · Post by **Indiana_Nate** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:40 pm

Just got Lee Keppler's Optimo blocked HJ and WOW :shock: I'm converted, I now swear by my HJ!

Regards,
Indy Nate

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:59 pm

Just got Lee Keppler's Optimo blocked HJ and WOW :shock: I'm converted, I now swear by my H

Wow! Sounds like the ultimate. How did this transpire? Any chance of pics?

fedoralover · Post by **fedoralover** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 10:54 pm

I guess I'm a bit confused, doesn't that say more for the Optimo's block than anything else. Why doesn't the HJ have the right block to begin with if they are the ones that made the original one that started this craze?

fedoralover

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:23 am

You raise an interesting point fedorlover. This whole HJ deal is nonsensical to me, always has been. Unless of course, HJ does not do reblocking. Does anyone here know? Seems like I do recall someone saying once that HJ figures when your hat is worn/shrunk, it's time for them to sell you a new one instead of reblocking. From what I can tell, most HJ's that fans own, seem to be the LC block. Not a bad thing, but not the most popular hat here. What I don't understand, is that if they did in fact lose their supplier of their original Poet, why did they not seek out the same block used on the original. Afterall, this Poet has supposedly been around for years and years. Curious. Questions, with no answers. Kinda like archaeology. Fedora

fedoralover · Post by **fedoralover** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 7:31 pm

I would have bought an HJ over an Optimo if I saw that the block was a real Raiders style block but I've only seen a few that were, most were tapered. Not that that makes it a bad hat by any means, it's just that if you're paying for the original I would think you would want it to look like the original Raiders fedora. That's what most of us like, not all, but probably the majority. Anyway, if anyone knows what the deal is with this it would be nice to know. In the mean time I've got a couple more weeks to wait for my chocolate brown Optimo to come in. I'm getting anxious.

fedoralover

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 12:13 pm

Here is a question:

Do HJ's run small? Let me explain, let's say I want an HJ. Now I know that they are good for an LC look. However, if I wanted that big hat Raiders look would it be best that I order one size larger and put some foam tape/weather stripping (a la HatsDirect) in the hat to make it fit?

Just wondering.
Pyro.

prettybigguy · Post by **prettybigguy** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:52 pm

I've had my PB2 for just a few weeks and I'm really impressed by it. I had to adjust it slightly with a hat retainer and now it's perfect. However, everyone raves about the Fed so much that I may order a Fed Deluxe early next year! I've had a Stetson Temple that I bought in Chicago about 6 years ago before I moved here to LA. I don't wear it very often because of the weather here, so I have not had any of the problems others have. When I go back to Illinois for the holidays next year I may even look into an Optimo! I saw a few of them @ the LA mini-summit a few weeks back and was really impressed.