LOTS more pics of the original LC jacket!

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:59 pm

Thanks to Aaron at TheIndyExperience.com we have quite a bit more pics than offered in the Profile In History catalog, which is hosting probably one of the largest collection of incredible sceeen used movie props and costumes I've ever seen. There is SO much stuff from so many phenomenal films, I just wish I had the money. *sigh*

Here's the link. http://www.theindyexperience.com/tie_li ... ml#0000645

One thing I immediately noticed was the placement of the side straps. Now, I'm not a LC guy, but aren't they usually higher up in the middle of the pockets? I suppose this will open up a little more debate since we hardly ever get to see pics as rare as these. I also know there was another thread on the jacket but I thought I'd start up a new one just in case so it wouldn't get overlooked or buried.

Thanks to Aaron for his dedication in getting these.

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:15 pm

So... what's "Bermans and Nathans"? I don't think Wested changed it's name twice, did it?

Those edges are pretty worn out... wow. A beautiful jacket indeed. Gorgeous!

In Christ,
Shane

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:19 pm

B & N did quite a bit of costuming for the original Star Wars trilogy and the Indy trilogy. Peter was subcontracted to do the jackets and when they were finished and sent back to B & N, they apparently put the tag inside before shipping to the set. After all, it was B & N who had the contract to get them done, so it would make sense for them to have their tag inside.
This type of subcontracting is done all the time in the costume/prop business for film.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Yes, distressing is definitely an art form, but even I think the sandpapering on that particular jacket is a bit heavy-handed. It's also interesting to note that the inside collar stand facing is cloth, and not leather, and that one of the top snaps is missing. Still, it is a beautiful jacket.

Mr. Das · Post by **Mr. Das** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:41 pm

t's also interesting to note that the inside collar stand facing is cloth, and not leather,

That's something Peter and co. added later. I'll bet some of the older members have those oldschool jackets.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:45 pm

hmmm. Thanks for posting that agent5. I am more of a Raiders guy myself and was a bit dismayed by the wear pattern on the jacket. I know the movie jackets are artificially aged but that looks too evenly worn.
The picture that displays the whole backside of the jacket is an example of what I am talking about. Am I totally off the mark here but should every seam should show wear like that? From a distance the jacket looks like a brown with cream trim jacket!

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:49 pm

Awesome pics!! It's great to see the back of a LC jacket!

The arm-sleeve seam is lower than I had expected and the back panel seam doesn't go straight out across to the arm seam like I had originally thought...Interesting indeed! Thank you for posting, she's a beautiful jacket!!

This is an excellent resource for those wanting a screen-accurate LC jacket. I wonder if these pics could be posted under the jacket section under the main site...? hmmm

High Regards,
Captain D

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:55 pm

They should be, for historical purposes.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:14 pm

Note the x box stitching on the side straps. Feraud, I agree, the distressing looks awful on that jacket.

Flattery · Post by **Flattery** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:25 am

Okay, I realize that Ford may have worn this jacket at least once during LC, but that is not THE LC jacket. It is not. The LC jacket seen throughout most of the film clearly had a distressed area on the back in the shape of a circle, and the distressed leather was a rust brown.

Just compare the distressing on that jacket to any other pics of the LC jacket Ford wore for most of the film.

Probably a stunt jacket, or maybe he wore this jacket for a scene that did not make it into the movie. I know I may sound like a doofus, but I've spent a long time trying to distress my jacket LC style, so I've become intimate with how that jacket looks.

Just my two cents.

JAN · Post by **JAN** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:53 am

I hear what You are saying, Flattery, but taking it is the LC-jacket I see
I still have much distressing to do...

Best regards

JAN

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:59 am

So the shop was at 18 Leicester Square, I remember being in Leicester Square in the late 70's there was a shop will a full Stormtrooper outfit in it's window display. This must have been it! Was in the evening and they were closed, what a shame!

KT

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:28 pm

I personally don't believe this jacket was used in the movie at all. There are way too many discrepancies, some of which Flattery so eloquently brought up, and still others that are quite glaring differences between this coat and the other LC coats we've seen in the Smithsonian and in the recent Chicago museum display, and in the movie itself.

To me, this looks like a recent Wested (late '90s/early '00s) which has been hastily transformed into a replica jacket.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:48 pm

the jacket doesn't look that good. People here can do a better distressing job than the one in those pics.

Flattery · Post by **Flattery** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:53 pm

People here can do a better distressing job than the one in those pics.

Agreed. There's a lot of very talented people here.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:58 pm

Present!

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:01 pm

Everyone needs to keep in mind that this was in a private collection for some time and nobody can #### for what's happened to it since the filming of the movie. There is also the chance that it was made for but not used in the film, still making it an authentic LC jacket.
Look at the other stuff up for auction. Do you honestly think this is JUST a Wested with a tag changed out? C'mon. You can't be serious.

Flattery · Post by **Flattery** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:13 pm

I understand. I don't dispute it's authenticity -- if it was used the film, we probably did not see many shots of it. The jacket Ford wore was consistent thoughout most of the scenes in the film, save for something posted recently regarding a pointed collar in one scene and a rounded one another.

I'm thinking it was worn as a stunt jacket for, possible, the tank scene near the end.

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:15 pm

agent5 wrote:Do you honestly think this is JUST a Wested with a tag changed out? C'mon. You can't be serious.

Stranger things have happened.

Agent5, I can't find the links, but do you still have your excellent photos from the Chicago display? It would be great to put a couple of those side-by-side with this jacket. There are simply too many honest to goodness design differences, in my opinion.

Either way it's an "interesting" jacket.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:19 pm

I have a bad fealing about this.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:20 pm

I wouldn't buy that jacket even if I thought it was the real thing ( I'll bet it's not).

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:19 pm

Agent5, I can't find the links, but do you still have your excellent photos from the Chicago display? It would be great to put a couple of those side-by-side with this jacket.

Why, yes. I certainly do. If you wanna host them I'd be happy to send them at hi res.

Here's a few from TheIndyExperience.com.

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:52 pm

Was the jacket in Chicago a Raiders or LC one?

On another note...in the past, I've had my doubts on whether the LC jacket was lamb. It looks too thick in many of the scenes. (Of course I could be wrong). The reason I bring this up now is looking at the jacket on TIE(see links below), the grain in these close up shots of the LC jacket up in the auction look to grainy/bumpy for a lamb. I'd love to know others' thoughts on this:
http://www.theindyexperience.com/image/ ... cket_1.jpg
http://www.theindyexperience.com/image/ ... cket_5.jpg
http://www.theindyexperience.com/image/ ... cket_6.jpg
http://www.theindyexperience.com/image/ ... cket_2.jpg

Also, someone mentioned perhaps it was a stunt jacket. Would they have written Ford's name in a stunt jacket? I'm not for sure(maybe they ran out of stunt jackets and had to pull a few of Ford's):
http://www.theindyexperience.com/image/ ... cket_8.jpg

Band Director Jones · Post by **Band Director Jones** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:06 pm

Indiana Texas-girl wrote:Was the jacket in Chicago a Raiders or LC one?

It's from LC. It has snaps on the storm flap.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:12 pm

Band Director Jones wrote:
Indiana Texas-girl wrote:Was the jacket in Chicago a Raiders or LC one?
It's from LC. It has snaps on the storm flap.

Yea, but they have a Raiders pic.

ITG,the jacket is pretty grainy, but I'd say its lamb. Wouldn't cow or gaot be too hard to age?

Post by **Jens** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:25 pm

J_Weaver wrote: Wouldn't cow or gaot be too hard to age?

As owner of a goat Wested I can tell you that it is not impossible, but much harder than aging a lamb.
I didn't do it, but I have my jacket over 2 years now, wear it every day, and it does look EXACTLY like it came out of the package!

-- Jens

PS: I noticed the "Raiders"-picture as well.

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:30 pm

BDJ, good point on the snaps. You caught me being a tad unobservant. I guess my excitement over the grainy leather made me overlook that little detail.

Band Director Jones · Post by **Band Director Jones** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:49 pm

Flattery wrote:I understand. I don't dispute it's authenticity -- if it was used the film, we probably did not see many shots of it. The jacket Ford wore was consistent thoughout most of the scenes in the film, save for something posted recently regarding a pointed collar in one scene and a rounded one another.

I'm thinking it was worn as a stunt jacket for, possible, the tank scene near the end.

Is this Ford? We know he likes to do many of his own stunts, but is this one of them? If so, then this may be the jacket he is wearing. It certianly has a lot of distressing going on.

Flattery · Post by **Flattery** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:20 pm

Judging from the expression of his mouth, I'd say it's Ford.

Yes, now that pic looks like the jacket we're talking about. It certainly confirms my thought that he wore the jacket for something like this so that the one we see the most wasn't damaged.

Thanks for posting that, Band Director!

Band Director Jones · Post by **Band Director Jones** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:35 pm

Yeah, that look says, "Why didn't I let Vic do this one?"

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:06 pm

IndyJens wrote:
J_Weaver wrote: Wouldn't cow or gaot be too hard to age?
As owner of a goat Wested I can tell you that it is not impossible, but much harder than aging a lamb.
I didn't do it, but I have my jacket over 2 years now, wear it every day, and it does look EXACTLY like it came out of the package!

-- Jens

PS: I noticed the "Raiders"-picture as well.

Yea, I have a Wested goat also. Like you said it's not impossible, but the goat is tough.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:17 pm

After giving this more thought, I realize that the jacket pictured has a cotton lining, while the one used on screen is satin, as Peter has stated on numerous occasions. Now I'm leaning toward the idea that this may indeed be a stunt jacket.

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:48 pm

That looks horible! Definatly not the "hero" jacket. The Chicago jacket may be the hero LC jacket. Like someone said, look for the red distressing. The distressing of the LC jacket doesn't look real appealing to me anyway, but that C-town jacket is done much better than the one in question.

Good find BDJ! That could actually be it or another horibly distressed like it. In that shot it looks quite dark. The lining also looks dark and shiny. I think that's the lining on the right side at least. I figured it wasn't used on screen because it looked so bad till you found that screen...

I wish there was a Raiders jacket on display some where.

Illinois Troy · Post by **Illinois Troy** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:12 pm

That Jacket reminds me a lot of my Wested that I got from Peter back in 1997. Same placement of straps, no leather facing on the collar, even the way the inside pocket and outside flaps are placed.

Agent5 has seen my jacket a few years ago, kind of a Raiders / LC hybrid, before all the hard research by some folks here, and Peter Botwrights infinite patience, went into getting a much more accurate Raiders look.

Illinois

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:17 pm

whipwarrior wrote:After giving this more thought, I realize that the jacket pictured has a cotton lining, while the one used on screen is satin, as Peter has stated on numerous occasions. Now I'm leaning toward the idea that this may indeed be a stunt jacket.

I thought that Peter said that the screen used jacket had all cotton lining and sleeves, and that he only recommends the cotton body and satin sleeves so that it is easier to put your jacket on without it pulling on your shirt sleeves.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:20 pm

If I'm not mistaken, the jackets used in Raiders of the Lost Ark and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom had all cotton linings, while the Last Crusade movie jackets were all satin, most notably seen in the Venice crossroads scene. The cotton/satin combination is Wested's recommendation for everyday use jackets.

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:42 pm

Thanks for sharing the Chicago photos, Agent5.

Okay to help defend my viewpoint let's look at these two jackets from a strictly design standpoint, let's not factor in or get hung up on the distressing on either. The fact is that the collar stand and storm flap setup on this coat is very different than what is on the "Chicago" coat, and what is on the Smithsonian coat, and what is seen on screen in the movie itself. The proper LC storm flap is one piece, it is not intersected at the top by the collar stand, as this coat's stormflap incorrectly is.

Even the snap at the top of the storm flap on this coat looks "added on." They've even got the male and female portions of the snap reversed. The female part should be on the flap, and the male part on the coat. They have the female part on the coat and the male part is completely missing, and appeared to have been simply sewn into the cotton collar stand (which should be leather, per the other LC coats).

Also, look at the dirt on the cotton collar stand. Anyone who's owned a cotton-lined Wested knows that if your collar stand is cotton, you get a uniform "ring around the collar" over a period of time. Strangely, on this coat, the only dirt is on the very edge of the collar stand, where the snap is/should be. The rest of the collar stand looks flawless.

There are more design flaws as well, which I'll simply touch on.

The pleats do not line up with the top back panel, as was the case on Westeds in the late '90s/early '00s. The Chicago coat and the on screen coats all do (or appear to).

The side straps on this coat feature the "X-box" stitching. The Chicago coat does not, nor do the movie coats (which as far I as believe is an accepted theory among fans).

There are two more areas where there are apparent seam differences (having to do with the arms and bottom of the coat), which can be seen perfectly in Agent5's high-res photos.

So bottom line, whether this is supposed to have been a coat worn by Ford in the movie, worn by a stuntman, worn by a key dolly grip, etc., the fact is that it's very different in design than other LC coats we've seen. These differences are not minor ones that could be chalked up to a different seamstress working on the different coats.

Again, to me this looks like a Wested from the late '90s/early '00s which has been altered to look more like the LC coat. I say "altered" because, to me, the storm flap snaps were clearly added later, and quite poorly too (which means if it was Wested it wasn't even an LC model to begin with). The poor distressing job only helps add credence to this theory, because it looks very rushed and amateurish.

But...you don't have to take my word for it.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:05 am

Something smells fishy about that jacket. It just doesn't add up. Also, I don't think I've ever seen a lining that color; cotton or satin. This looks like a satin lining here. Surely this isn't a forgery?

I know, I know...don't call you Shirley.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:16 am

When something seems to good to be ???????? should pop up in you head.

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:26 pm

The photos of the SW stuff on that auction site look pretty good, but I'm not an expert on that. I'd have to lean toward That Brower Kid's summary on this piece. Either forgary or the assistant to the assistant prop distresser did this one and they didn't use it. We could be making bank if we were that devious.

Glad you think we're okay Tone.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:52 pm

The other items on the website are very interesting but you have to read the descriptions carefully. Certain auctions list items without saying in so many words that the piece is the actual one used by the actor in the film.

I have read a lot of descriptions that make me doubt that props and costumes are the 'Hero' piece.

I love the Terminator jacket listed in the catalog! From reading the description I have doubts whether it is the actual jacket Arnold wore in the state scenes....

The buyer must know their stuff and ask questions.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:04 pm

I personally believe this is one of the originals, but I'm also remembering the Raider's original that _ reviewed and the FS Expedition is patterned after, which ALSO came from one of these type auctions and passed into a private collection. It was discovered in a second visit that it was indeed a STUNT jacket, not a HERO jacket, so this jacket could fall anywhere in this situation. Either way, in the Raiders case it was still screen used.

I know in the Skywalker ranch warehouse walkthru tape, there are probably a dozen used LC jackets hanging on a rack there alone. The fact that the name 'Ford' appears on this particular jacket says to me that it was assigned to Ford for the production. Not sure WHERE in the production, but the screen grab of him on the side of the tank sure makes a strong argument to me that this may be the one. If you watch the extras DVD in the boxed set, you know that indeed it IS Ford doing this particular stunt. He had to have it stopped in mid shoot as it got to 'real' for him.

JMO here.

Regards! Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:17 pm

ITG,
To answer your question about the leather grain, Peter has mentioned before that the place that procesesed the leather used to use an older method which kept the leather very grainy as you can clearly see in the films, especially Raiders. Since then the company has changed the method in which they process the leather, now making it quite smoother than what we see on film. In essence, todays goat looks like yesterdays lamb.

That pic that Band Director posted seems to be the jacket. Anyone got more screen caps from that scene to verify?

I was thinking that perhaps because the straps are quyite lower on this jacket that perhaps it was a TOD stunt jacket that they modied slightly for stunt use in LC. After all, they used Raiders stunt jackets for TOD, right? Why couldn't this have been done for LC? This would have to be my assumption based on the mentioned added on top snap. They'd say, 'we need a coat to mess up badly for this stunt scene' and just pull out one from the archives that's already been through the ringer, then add the necessary parts to make it a LC jacket, NEVER ONCE considering there'd be a group of people like us, sitting around discussing it's details.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:18 pm

Michaelson wrote:The fact that the name 'Ford' appears on this particular jacket says to me that it was assigned to Ford for the production. Not sure WHERE in the production, but the screen grab of him on the side of the tank sure makes a strong argument to me that this may be the one.

I agree with that! When I saw the picture of Ford hanging between the tank and the wall I noticed similarities between the two.
Not that I like the distressing any better knowing that.....

I believe that you have to be careful and understand exactly what you are getting at auction. There is nothing wrong with a stunt jacket but you should not purchase it under the pretense of a hero jacket.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:33 pm

I believe that you have to be careful and understand exactly what you are getting at auction. There is nothing wrong with a stunt jacket but you should not purchase it under the pretense of a hero jacket.

Wouldn't the fact that HF wopre the coat on-screen mean that it's a hero jacket, even if worn in one scene for a stunt? Wouldn't a stunt jacket be worn by stunt people, and not the star of the film?
Could be completely wrong here so, someone who's NOT guessing, please help me out.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:42 pm

That's how I read it too, agent5. If it's screen worn by the main character, regardless of scene, it's considered a 'hero' jacket. If used by a stuntman, it's a stunt jacket, screen used or not.

Problem we seem to have with auction houses is they don't really CARE what was worn where or by whom....if it's a jacket from an Indiana Jones movie, they call it a 'Raiders' jacket. Period. The fact this one is actually stated as being connected to LC, as well as showing a closeup of the inside assignment tag with Ford's name is a first for me, as just about ALL the Indy related jackets I've EVER seen in the past have been a 'your guess is as good as mine' in our hobby. Like I said above, to the auction houses, they're all the same to them, stunt or hero versions alike!

Regards! Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:49 pm

True, true, true. They usually base the auction on a particular film the item was in, not what particular scene it was in, although they do make exceptions for exceptional pieces.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:55 pm

I think the auction houses need an eduction in Film memorabilia terminology!

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:11 pm

agent5 wrote:...perhaps it was a TOD stunt jacket that they modied slightly for stunt use in LC. After all, they used Raiders stunt jackets for TOD, right? Why couldn't this have been done for LC? This would have to be my assumption based on the mentioned added on top snap. They'd say, 'we need a coat to mess up badly for this stunt scene' and just pull out one from the archives that's already been through the ringer, then add the necessary parts to make it a LC jacket...

Excellent idea. This having been a modified ToD jacket would basically explain a lot (save for the absence of "ring around the collar," and the alignment of the pleats).

But another issue I have with this coat is how supple it looks. Anybody who's seen photos of Noel Howard's ToD jacket know just how brittle and frail it looks. Even the jacket Ford pulled from his own collection to wear on stage a year or so ago with all three "Indy Girls" looked quite fragile, even an arm seem had split. Yet this coat looks just as soft and manageable as Sarah Jessica Parker's hair in those shampoo ads.

So, here's where I'm at. In my opinion this coat appears to be one of two things:

A leftover from ToD which was modified and distressed to match the LC style. All the while having been sealed in a moisture chamber for the last 21 years to keep it just as soft and supple as a new jacket.

-or-

A late '90s/early '00s Wested Raiders (or ToD) style jacket which has been hastily modified by somebody in hopes of making it appear closer to a LC jacket.

If somebody can show me photos of an actual LC jacket which is designed like this coat is, then I'll change my assessment. I would really love to believe that this is legitimate. Somebody please find photos of a LC jacket with this style of storm flap/collar stand.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:21 pm

It could have also be rehydrated by the auction companies restoration group before it was placed on auction. This is often done by auction houses at the request of item owners. My son-in-law used to do this sort of work for New York auction houses when it came to furniture and armament. It's not radical re-work....just work to allow the items to be stabilized for handling and viewed in the best light. Regards! Michaelson