Historical accuracy of Indy jacket

taikonaut · Post by **taikonaut** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 am

Not sure if it has been dicussed before, but I have unable to find similar pre WW2 bomber jacket that matches the one like Indy, does it exist? If it does can anyone say which make it is andd what origin?

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:08 am

A2 bomber jacket. Check US Wings, they make one. :junior: -IJ

taikonaut · Post by **taikonaut** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:38 am

It looks very different than all the A2 I had seen, the shoulder applet, no side fastening, elastic cuffs and waist, etc.

VP · Post by VP » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:47 am

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:15 pm

I've mentioned this before on the site - The closest similar Indyesque jacket was the US G-8 jacket. It had the same kind of back, non-elasticized cuffs and waist. It had pull tabs at the waist. The main differences were the zippers at the button cuffs and the buttons on the pockets. I still think it's a pretty cool alternative to the Indy jacket. Avirex currently sells a reproduction.

I have one from Banana Republic from years ago and if it still fit me I would wera it all the time. I keep meaning to pull it out of storage and post pics of it. I will one day.

Cheers
Nick

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:14 pm

The reason that you can't find a pre-WWII flight jacket close to the Indy jacket is that there isn't one. To my knowledge the Indy jacket was designed by Peter Botwright for Raiders. I think its basic design was based off a James Dean denim jacket. (someone jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.) Like VP said, the G8 is about as close as any real world flight jacket gets.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:30 pm

J_Weaver wrote:To my knowledge the Indy jacket was designed by Peter Botwright for Raiders. I think its basic design was based off a James Dean denim jacket.

I've also heard the Harrington jacket theory - but a Harrington is not cut like an Indy jacket - it's basic design resembles the MA-1 jacket more than anything, slanted pockets and all.

IMO, the Indy jacket was designed to be a typical leather jacket for the period, with certain influence from the aviation world. I mean, cab drivers and motorcyclists also wore a similar jacket...

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:36 pm

What exactly is the Harrington jacket theory? I don't think that I've ever heard of it, although I may have and didn't know it.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:42 pm

What you stated in your previous post - Peter was commissioned to make a leather jacket based on the "James Dean" jacket, which is supposed to be of Harrington style. It's design is similar to a generic varsity jacket.

However, a brief search among the old, dusty threads shows that the theory isn't really a theory - more like a stated fact. The story comes from Peter himself:

In an older thread, Indiana Ken wrote:I was speaking to Peter yesterday and heard the about the James Dean jacket for the first time. Basically they took the james jean jacket, took the top breast pocket off, added A2 pockets and extened the action pleats at the back and that was how the Indy jacket we know and love came into existence. The thing which really impressed me was that this all happened within the space of a week - they saw the jacket, got Peter to make it, took it to Ford to try on, made tweakings and adjustments and then made an initial 10 more for the film all in the space of a week! What a feat!

There we go. I stand corrected... however, I still believe the basic idea behind the design was a "period" 1930's one - a bit of aviator here, some Bogart there...

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:01 pm

Oops, I remember reading that now.

I wonder if they added "spec" A-2 pockets or just A-2 style pockets? I always debated about the size of the original Raiders pockets. The pockets on my A-2 are small; 7.25" - 5.75". The pockets on my TOD Wested are; 8.5" - 7"

taikonaut · Post by **taikonaut** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:29 pm

Its not unusual to see people wearing aviator jacket but I would expect anyone in the 1930s to wear one would need to have been involved in the air force. Indy dont know how to fly a plane.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:45 pm

Uhh, yes he does. Gale Parker gave him flying lessons in the book Indiana Jones and the White Witch.

Dre · Post by **Dre** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:27 pm

Fly...yes.

Land...no.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:48 pm

taikonaut wrote:Its not unusual to see people wearing aviator jacket but I would expect anyone in the 1930s to wear one would need to have been involved in the air force. Indy dont know how to fly a plane.

Leather jackets and fedoras were quite fashionable in the 1930's. I don't think it would have been out of the question for a man to be wearing a civilian aviator jacket. Heck, Indy could have had his jacket custom made.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:23 pm

taikonaut wrote:Indy dont know how to fly a plane.

Actually, in the YIJC, Indy did have a brief stint in the air force in which he kindof duked it out with the Red Baron. :junior: -IJ

Zach R. · Post by **Zach R.** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:57 am

[SWNerd]Yeah, but thats in the EU not in the movies...[/SWNerd]

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:46 am

Then why didn't he know how to fly in "Temple of Doom"?

"Do you know how to fly a plane?" "No, do you? How hard can it be?" you know the scene, "fuel--fuel!"

have a nice day.

Post by **Jens** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:15 am

Well, at least he knew where to look for fuel and so on. So he might have some basic skills.

(Maybe he was kidding at Willie? And come on, flying a plane - how hard can this be?

8-[ )

taikonaut · Post by **taikonaut** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:23 am

Its easy to spot the meter with low fuel as with motor cars. Certainly in the films he does not know how to fly. Indy like many men of the 1930s must have served in the military still he chose an air force jacket which would have linked him to the airforce.

Bjones · Post by **Bjones** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:59 am

The old Sears and Roebuck catalogs used to sell several very Indy-esque jacket back in the 20s-30s. The Cossack and the Half-belt were very similar to the Indy...some had the pleats, they had side pulls etc. The major difference is the A2 pockets on the Indy.

shadwell55 · Post by **shadwell55** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:00 pm

In Last Crusade he tells his father he knows how to fly but not how to land.

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:06 pm

After crashing in TOD, Indy went out and learned how to fly a plane. Howard Hughes was gracious enough to teach him. The only problem was, Howard was such a hog at the wheel that Indy only learned how to fly, not how to land, because Howard kept landing for him. Also, Howard kept insisting that Indy shake off the dust from his hat and to bring along three bottles of milk as payment. -I can't believe you guys missed that.

taikonaut · Post by **taikonaut** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:52 pm

Hemingway observent as always....

Still this doesnt explain why Indy wears a flyers jacket before he even learn how to fly on the films. Archeologist of the period probably dont wear leather jacket based on what historical references about Howard Carter or Heinrich Schliemann which Indy was suppose to have based on. I would have guess Indy was an amateur archeologist but always wanted to fly, a wannabe airman that got sidetracked by his study and his work as a university tutor.

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:57 pm

taikonaut wrote:Hemingway observent as always....
Still this doesnt explain why Indy wears a flyers jacket before he even learn how to fly on the films. Archeologist of the period probably dont wear leather jacket based on what historical reference about Howard Carter or Heinrich Schliemann which Indy was suppose to have based on. I would have guess Indy is an amateur archeologist but always wanted to fly, a wannabe airman that got sidetracked by his study and his work as a university tutor.

That sounds reasonable, though it is hard to imagine Indy not making time for anything he wanted to do. Though he never got around to having a family, but that is another story.

I would imagine that he needed a tough jacket for dragging over rocks and thorns. He probably wanted something short and remembered the airmen from the Great War. So, he went out and bought one surplus.

Actually, there is another explanation. He may have been a motorcyle enthusiast. Many war veterens, missing the adrenalin rush of combat got into motorcyling and when they did, they wore Airmen's jackets. We know that Indy could ride a motorcyle with a high degree of skill, and that he could joust while doing it. This is another possibility.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:27 pm

taikonaut wrote:Still this doesnt explain why Indy wears a flyers jacket before he even learn how to fly on the films.

And every guy wearing cowboy boots works on a ranch a rides with cattle?
Seriously, folks, aren't we putting a little too much thought in this? Leather aviator jackets were a popular style by the 1920's. Many short jackets in the 1930's and 40's were based on the basic styling of the popular aviator jackets. Motorcyclists adopted them, as did other professional automobile drivers, brewery cart drivers, etc...

It's just a cool jacket. A lot of Depression-Era tough guys wore leather jackets and fedoras - it was the outfit of the working man.

Besides, what about these guys?

Alan Ladd in China

Charlton Heston in Secret of the Incas

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:32 pm

Ditto Scandinavia, I think we're all thinking too much again.

taikonaut · Post by **taikonaut** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:46 pm

Scandinavia, not exactly sure this was the case in Europe even though Indy is American his gear is mixed. There were indeed many ex servicemen from the airforce that continue to don the same flyers jacket when they adopted the motor cycle after WW2 and maybe the same thing happened after WW1 though I cant confirm this, in Indy's case he is not an airman so the origin of his preference might be he aspire to be one but didnt have a chance. He may have caught onto the image from bikers but I cant see anyone wanting to take up flying unless its in his blood to begin with. Cant explain the Charlton Heston pic, maybe he was an ex airman in the film?

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:54 pm

Scandinavia Jones wrote:Seriously, folks, aren't we putting a little too much thought in this? Leather aviator jackets were a popular style by the 1920's. Many short jackets in the 1930's and 40's were based on the basic styling of the popular aviator jackets. Motorcyclists adopted them, as did other professional automobile drivers, brewery cart drivers, etc...

It's just a cool jacket. A lot of Depression-Era tough guys wore leather jackets and fedoras - it was the outfit of the working man.

As for the piloting skills of Indiana Jones - he's an action hero. The planes we've seen him pilot have been a part of a adventure narrative.

And yes, my European ancestors also wore leather jackets in the 30's, without having any aeronautical connection.

Indyjim · Post by **Indyjim** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:33 pm

Remember, in LC at the beginning, Fedora or Abner or whoever the character
is in the opening sequence wore a leather jacket and gave Indy the fedora.
Maybe Indy just liked the look and went from there. We do!

Idaho Potatoes · Post by **Idaho Potatoes** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:19 pm

Archeologist of the period probably dont wear leather jacket

Some fellow in The English Patient wore a leather jacket - and in Egypt too. ( God it must have been hot.)

Here's what Aero says was historical 1930's:

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:05 am

Hemingway Jones wrote:Howard kept insisting that Indy shake off the dust from his hat and to bring along three bottles of milk as payment. -I can't believe you guys missed that.

Indy also had to learn that he had to hold the bottle with his right hand and take the cap off with his left hand in just the right way, or the process would have to be repeated.

Rev.Chuck · Post by **Rev.Chuck** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:14 pm

My Dad was in the Navy and flew off the Boxer but he was not a pilot, he was a radar man. He did not know how to fly the plane, but he still had a leather flight jacket. (They did not let him steer the ship either

)

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:27 pm

I'm sitting here watching Three's Company right now. Jack is wearing a demin jacket. All the major pieces are identical to the Raiders jacket. The yoke, back panel, sides, etc. I know most of us know that the Raiders jacket was based off of this style, but it just now hit me how close they really are.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:05 pm

Texas Raider wrote:Then why didn't he know how to fly in "Temple of Doom"?

"Do you know how to fly a plane?" "No, do you? How hard can it be?" you know the scene, "fuel--fuel!" have a nice day.

Because he was flying a WWI bi-plane in "Attack of the Hawk-men" and a WWII era cargo plane in ToD. There's a BIG difference between the controls of planes from those two eras. :junior: -IJ

Baggers · Post by **Baggers** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:01 pm

IndianaJones wrote:Because he was flying a WWI bi-plane in "Attack of the Hawk-men" and a WWII era cargo plane in ToD. There's a BIG difference between the controls of planes from those two eras. :junior: -IJ

True, but the basic principles of flight are the same. He should have had -- at a minimum -- enough skills to keep it straight and level under Visual Flight Rules. In addition, back in that era any pilot who had qualified to fly multi engine cargo type aicraft had originally started their career by flying open cockpit biplanes back during their primary flight training. they started out small and simple and worked their way up in terms of complexity.

Cheers!

cyclops · Post by **cyclops** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:09 pm

On the UKTV History channel tonight there was a programme on the Tanis dig of 1939-40 by Pierre Montet, and in one picture he was weaonly ring a waist length leather jacket with cargo pockets on the front, it was on screen for a few seconds, but I couldn't see any ribbing to associate it with an A2 or similar. What was good was it was a Raiders type jacket at Tanis

Unfortunately no time for a grab - too quick - but from this I guess there must have been that kind of jacket around in the 1930's.

Scoured the net but came up blank finding the picture - someone else may have more luck.

Cheers
Cyclops

cyclops · Post by **cyclops** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:44 pm

Apparently Pierre Montet liked a tall crowned hat...

Cheers
Cyclops

Last Crusader · Post by **Last Crusader** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:23 pm

This is the G8 Jacket from the late 1920´s. It was the standard jacket of U.S. Navy and Marine Corp flyers. I think this is the origin of Indy´s jacket. Looking pretty good, right?

golpeo_rapidamente · Post by **golpeo_rapidamente** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:13 am

http://photobucket.com/albums/v98/faaba ... ghsdfh.jpg

check this link
regards
Sam

Historical accuracy of Indy jacket

Historical accuracy of Indy jacket

Indy's flight skills