Todd Coyle elucidates on how to achieve "reverse taper&

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:58 pm

Here is an e-mail that I recieved from Todd Coyle of Todd's Costumes, in response to a query I had made to him, asking about the current quality of his HJs, and a few other HJ related questions. The "reverse taper" thing you see in my subject matter is his point #2.

Thought you might all be interested to see.

Thanks for the note! It seems that you have done some research on the Indy
hat! However, let me offer you a different point of view than the ones
usually bandied about on the various internet message boards.

Felt quality: for a film you don't necessarily want fine quality fur, you
want durable fur that will keep it's shape. Thin dress felt will not hold
the shape well. I would recommend my custom fedora made by Baron's hats,
who's business it is to make movie hats with exactly that quality. I
wouldn't recommend the HJ because it is more of a dress felt and not very
durable. (don't listen to those who think that there is a magical perfect
hat out there that is paper thin yet wears like iron. It is a fantasy!)

The look of the "raiders" hat(s) (there were only two hero hats as near as I
can tell) is not a function of the felt, it is a function of the block and
the shaping. If you take dozens of screen captures of the hat and get out
your micrometer (as I have done) you will find that the mysterious changing
shape is a figment of the imagination. The hat(S) are exactly the same
throughout the film (except a few shots where it got bent or dented in the
course of shooting).

1.) The block has yet to be re-created. I have found photos of the block and
am re-creating it, but so far I have only one prototype that is roughly 7
1/4. Initial blocking tests have confirmed that the block does indeed create
the "raiders" shape.

2.) Shaping: are two things at work with the "stove-pipe" shape. A: the
"cairo/tunisia hat" being crushed so badly during distressing created a more
exaggerated "stove-pipe" than the "england/hawaii" hat. B: both hats were
stretched greatly around the sweatband. Perhaps because they chose a size or
two too small to keep the hat tighter? Whatever the reason, the stretch at
the forehead and at the back of the head is clear and obvious. This also
will create a more "stove-pipe" shape by sucking in the sides under the
ribbon slightly, making the top of the hat look wider. (Strider edit: this is what I was talking about.)

If you are really serious about replicating the "Raiders" hat, let's do a
custom (perhaps my prototype block will fit?) and we'll stretch it and
distress it to really emulate the film hat. I will work with Baron's to get
it just right, and you are in the hands of professionals, not "weekend
warriors". Hats for films is Baron's business and has been for decades -
take it from Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, and hundreds of film and television
productions. You will only need one hat, unless you have a water scene that
will ruin it, in which case you will need a few if you want multiple takes.

I hope this helps! I guess the main thing is that "quality" for a film hat
is a whole different standard than for a dress hat for street wear.

Regards,

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:05 pm

Hmm...Thats very interesting.

I wonder how or where he was able to get pics of "the" block? I would like for Todd to do a hat like he was talking about and then show us the results. It would be interesting to see how it stacks up next to the Adventurebilt.

IMO Todd has a way to go to beat the AB.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:37 pm

1.) The block has yet to be re-created. I have found photos of the block and
am re-creating it, but so far I have only one prototype that is roughly 7
1/4. Initial blocking tests have confirmed that the block does indeed create
the "raiders" shape.

Seems like Todd is going through the same development in block shapes that Marc Kitter and I went through last summer. Marc and I tried every block shape imaginable, with me doing the work of building up and sanding down. We tried every conceivable degree of taper, and straight sidedness.(is that a word?

). We also experimented with different crown shapes, from high domes to flat tops. What we ended up with is what I use today, as I had it replicated. The last that I heard regarding Todd's take on the block shape was that the current HJ was in fact "the correct shape", and we had it wrong. He has changed his mind, I see. Good, I think a side my side comparison will be in order. Competition improves the breed, and I am all for that. Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:38 pm

I'd like to see pictures of that hat block if Todd has actually seen it. And is he saying that the hat block had the creases pre-formed, or that this block is a typical "unbashed" block? I wouldn't mind the clarification.

Todd brings up some interesting points about "movie quality" hats. I can understand the tight fit of the hat, especially since they wanted to make sure Indy never "lost his hat" during Raiders. However, I would think that the felt would have to be thin enough to stretch pretty effortlessly due to the scenes where he seems to be removing/placing his hat with no trouble. I, personally, still think the felt was a thinner felt just by how the hat reacted in the film.

As to "weekend warrior" hat makers, I agree with Mr. Weaver that Todd has a LOT to live up to in comparrison to one "warrior" I know.

bink

IndianaWill · Post by **IndianaWill** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:14 pm

For 2 Cents!!

Todd Coyle, Quote, "Todd's Costumes" As I said Costumes.

"Mark Mejia". is the Hat Maker for Baron Hats.

Steve, "Fedora", Hattier, Maker of fine Felt Hats. Pure Beaver, Rabbit...

His Business is Making Fedora Hats.......A Very fine Artist ,of hat making!!

Do I need to say more???????

IndianaWill

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:48 am

Thin dress felt will not hold the shape well. I would recommend my custom fedora made by Baron's hats, who's business it is to make movie hats with exactly that quality. I wouldn't recommend the HJ because it is more of a dress felt and not very durable. (don't listen to those who think that there is a magical perfect hat out there that is paper thin yet wears like iron. It is a fantasy!)

Yeah, right. Thin felt doesn't hold up. But since the Optimo era nobody claimed that the Raiders Fedora was paper thin. I believe it was medium thick and had very little (if any) stiffner and just a super soft felt as good rabbit felt is (and that's what HJ used back then: GOOD rabbit felt).

The look of the "raiders" hat(s) (there were only two hero hats as near as I
can tell) is not a function of the felt, it is a function of the block and
the shaping. If you take dozens of screen captures of the hat and get out
your micrometer (as I have done) you will find that the mysterious changing
shape is a figment of the imagination. The hat(S) are exactly the same
throughout the film (except a few shots where it got bent or dented in the
course of shooting).

It's a function of the felt AND the block. Even with the perfect block you'll never get a stiff and very thick cowboy felt to look screen accurate.

1.) The block has yet to be re-created. I have found photos of the block and
am re-creating it, but so far I have only one prototype that is roughly 7
1/4. Initial blocking tests have confirmed that the block does indeed create
the "raiders" shape.

Fedora DID re-create it. No pun towards Todd, as I think he has some great pieces of gear on his side, but I just don't agree with this e-mail.

Shaping: are two things at work with the "stove-pipe" shape. A: the
"cairo/tunisia hat" being crushed so badly during distressing created a more
exaggerated "stove-pipe" than the "england/hawaii" hat. B: both hats were
stretched greatly around the sweatband. Perhaps because they chose a size or
two too small to keep the hat tighter? Whatever the reason, the stretch at
the forehead and at the back of the head is clear and obvious. This also
will create a more "stove-pipe" shape by sucking in the sides under the
ribbon slightly, making the top of the hat look wider.

...this would couse a front to back taper. Trust me on that one!

Just my tow cts,

Marc

IndianaWill · Post by **IndianaWill** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:30 am

Question?
In the reverse taper, would there be a difference if ther were no sweat band and the ribbon was tight ?

Appreciate your feedback...

IndianaWill

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:17 am

IndianaWill wrote:Todd Coyle, Quote, "Todd's Costumes" As I said Costumes.

Please, don't confuse Todd with some random, 2-bit hat maker just because the word "costume" is in his business and site's title. Todd can shape and sell you a good looking hat, the only problem being the current quality of the HJ's. He has made many fine quality pieces, Indy and non-Indy. If you want the same brand of hat that was used in the movies (and there are many like this) then the Herbert Johnson fedora is your hat. And really, either Todd or Indyfedora.com are going to be able to hook you up with that at a decent price.

Regards,

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:21 am

I'm not putting Todd down, but I get a little irritated when he refers to "weekend warrior" hatmakers as those who haven't a clue about hats, epecially when Fedora knows so much about vintage hats and how to make them by hand HIMSELF from the ground up. There have been many folks who have tried to figure out the "magic" of Indy's hat, and in my opinion, Fedora has come the closest to date in replicating the original block and feel of these hats. I'd still like to see the pictures of the original block that Todd is talking about.

bink

Texas Jones · Post by **Texas Jones** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:47 am

POST DELETED

-TJ

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:07 am

but in my opinion needs work on the forming and shaping after the hat is made.

Mister, you need to talk to the other 300 plus hat owners that I shaped the hat before I mailed. That is an insult, and I will still give your money back just to get my hat back. Fedora

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:11 pm

Whoa!!! Let's all cool down here!! I don't want to be the subject of a war!! Let me clarify a few things and hopefully everyone will feel a little better.

First, that e-mail wasn't meant for posting on the board here. It was written in response to someone who wanted a hat for film use, and was not terribly "diplomatic" when opened to public view. I mean no disrespect to anyone so please don't take it that way.

When making nice dress hats for daily wear, Fedora is far from a "weekend warrior". From the testimonials here it is clear that he does a really fine job. I'm not putting him down at all!!! Me, on the other hand, haven't made ANY hats at all so please PLEASE don't turn this into a "Todd vs Fedora" arguement!!! From what I know, he has worked very hard to learn his craft and has a real passion for what he's doing and he has my respect.

HOWEVER, the subject of the e-mail was a hat for FILM USE, and in that reguard I don't know anyone more expert than Mark Mejia. Seriously, who can dispute that? Anyone know of someone who has made more film hats? Anyone? Making hats for actual film use is a craft unto itself that is learned through experience and actually being in that business.

Any other comments about the actual hat used in "Raiders" are purely my opinion, and just like everyone else on this board, I've got mine. I don't think there is anyone on this board who was actually there during the production, so our opinions are based on photos and the film and whatever we think we know about hats. But PLEASE, I readily admit and state uncategorically for the record right here and now that I'm no hat pro, and I'm not a hat maker!!!

As far as the HJ, I don't think I've ever thought it was the "Raiders" block. I'm sure it's not. But I do think it's the TOD and LC block. It's a nice hat, but Fedora's are probably better (I say "probably" because I don't have one of Fedora's hats, or any hat for that matter.) I don't make any claims for the HJ other than it's a HJ and a nice looking hat. Please don't put words in my mouth.

As far as my hat block, yeah, I do think I've found photographic evidence and I'm doing tests as I have time. It sounds like Fedora did the same thing!! Lots of elbow grease and bondo and wet felt! We will indeed have to have a "hat block shoot-out" one day and compare the two blocks!! Fedora, I think your block is VERY VERY VERY CLOSE!! But we'll see if I can do a smidge better!

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:08 pm

Todd,

I wasn't trying to start a flame war by posting the email you had sent me on here. Though, I thought it was interesting that you commented on how to achieve the much vaunted, much revered "Reverse Taper", and thought I would post it here to give others a different take on how they might achieve such a thing since, as I'm sure you can agree, it is a desireable effect to achieve when going for the complete "Raiders look". Also, the quality of HJs has also been a topic of controversy here as of late, and your e-mail also touched upon that.

I whole-heartedly do NOT want to turn this into a "Todd Vs. Fedora" debate, as I love all of Steve's hats that I have recieved from him, and also believe that any advice you give comes from years of experience, and as such, I feel like both sides of the opinion should be showcased.

Again, this was posted just to show different sides to a much talked about story, and was not meant to cause a war in any way. Sorry for any offense.

Regards,

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:41 pm

I think people should think before they speak or in this case post (and Learn some tact)!

Texas Jones · Post by **Texas Jones** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:13 pm

POST DELETED

-TJ

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:39 pm

Texas Jones wrote:I wanted a hat with specs that were too probably too picky. You gave it a shot, and I didn't feel like my picky desires were fullfilled. That is not your fault, it's probably mine for demanding too much when I ordered the hat.

Ya know, I think that the great success of the Adventurebilt has created a lot of false expectations. I mean a lot of us, myself included, expect to open up the box and see "the" hat looking back at us. However, "the" hat has been gone for a long time. I know I ordered my AB open crown just so if it wasn't what I wanted it would be nobody's fault but my own.

Todd, go to work on your hat and keep us posted on how it works out.

Texas Jones · Post by **Texas Jones** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:37 pm

POST DELETED

-TJ

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:11 pm

I agree with most of what you are saying TAG but, you as being a fellow vendor like MR. Steve Delk aka Fedora. he deserves some professional respect coming from you a fellow vendor. Maybe this should have been posted to him in a PM or E-mail.
I think Steve handle this like a professional and a gentlemen. Steve has one of the best cosumer servise I have ever known. He puts his cosumer 's need above his own, he doesn't rush you off the phone ,gives money back if not happy with his product and keaps you up to date on any delays on recieving your hat. As I recall he gave you every bit of help and options to make you happy. Example of Steve cusomer servise is when a family member died suddenly he posted there would be a delay in production because he had to leave town , and when he returned got right back to work so no one would have a delay in recieving there hats. When you have vendors out there that never want to deal with you on any level ( do I need to drop a name here).There is only so much tweaking of the nose one can take before speaking up on one's own defence.
The first reaction I had from this was not anything negative towards Steve but , negative towards you. I Had just placed an order with you for one of your bag straps, and after reading your post it made me wonder. If this is his treatment of a fellow vendor , what would his treatment of a customer be like.
A apology to MR. Steve Delk is a great idea but, would be alot better without the ......ands.......but's.......this...... or that's , added on the end.

Drop them off and that would be apology best suited from one vender to another, it's called being a professional .

This is the main reason I keap my posts to questions and brief comments like I like your pics etc.

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:36 pm

Edit: Move along, nothing to see here.

Peace has been made, there is no bad blood between any of us, and all is well in the jungle.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:51 pm

I think that this thread has kind of blown up in my face. This was not the kind of responses I was hoping to garner when I posted this. Perhaps I should not have posted it at all. It was my feeling at the time, that since Todd made an interesting comment on how to achieve the much vaunted, much revered "reverse taper" that we all know and love, that I would post it, just to see what the rest of you fellows thought.

Also, since my original question to Todd was directed at the quality of his HJ's, and he ended up touching upon their quality in relation to dress and films, that I would post that section too, as it has been a point of controversy here over the months.

I feel as though my thread is about to cause a flame war, and when one of those happens, someone always gets modslapped. I don't want to see that happen to anyone

. I'd feel partially responsible. Not only that, but I feel like my having posted the e-mail has angered Todd, which, again, was NOT my intention.

I'm sorry for causing any bru-ha-ha. I didn't mean to.

Regards,

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:11 pm

Well, I am gonna stick my face right in the middle of this and will probably take a few smacks for it, but here it goes.

I might be in a strange position here, as I have had "issues" with both of these vendors. I'm not going to go into it in great detail, but I will say that one of these vendors showed me amazing customer service when my order had problems, while the other seemed to not really care, or if they did wasn't very friendly (in my opinion) about it.

Anyway. I will say this. I have never honestly even SEEN another Indy hat aside from the old official one back in 1980something, so I might not know anything when it comes to hats. But I can honestly say that the BOTH times I opened my AB boxes, it was "THE" hat!

Not only that, but I have honestly never seen anyone more dedicated than Steve. He is on here all the time telling his secrets. He doesn't boast about his shape that often because he has an amazing amount of people that do that for him.

I notice there are some people on this forum that like to be nay-sayers about the AB, but come on, the track record that Fedora has shown speaks for itself.

As for my opinion on the "flaming" going on here...I agree, Fedora has every right to come out of his corner, "mad hatter" style! That "weekend warrior" comment, whether it was directed to Fedora or not, is enough to make me NEVER want to buy a hat from that guy. Fedora is on here all the time telling us his honest opinion of other hatters without personally insulting them.

I stand behind Steve, and I stand behind his work because not only does he make an amazing hat, but he is a gentleman through and through!!

Oh, and I just wanted to make one final comment. You people are all insanely lucky! You have a guy like Fedora who will make you hats for a great price...and then watch you all open the box, and go right for the steam.

I sometimes feel sad when I see these AB pics...I always wonder what the original artist did.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:17 pm

you won't get any smacks from me crazylegs, I agree with you ( did you read my post)?

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:22 pm

Ok guys, lets stop butting head, it won't do any good.

Now, I'm gonna make an attempt to get this back on topic. Todd has a good point about a costume hat being made tougher than a dress hat. However, I disagree about the felt in Raiders hat. I don't think the Raiders hat was a paper thin hat, but it certainly wasn't a thick felt either. I think the felt used in the Raiders hat was similar to the felt in the Akubra Squatter; a soft, floppy, thinner felt. Obviously Indy's hat wasn't stiff, because we see the brim flopping in the wind.

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:23 pm

I did!

I have debated for a long time if I should voice my experiances with the vendors I have ordered from. I have actually had "issues" with every single vendor I have ordered from.

I don't however feel the need, in this post anyway to get into it, but I think everyone needs to extend a little respect, starting with the guy who sent that e-mail.

"weekend warrior" Pfft....pffft I say!

Texas Jones · Post by **Texas Jones** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:26 pm

Point taken gentlemen, I have deleted all of my posts. Though it can't erase them from ever being said, I think it's the right thing to do.

Just so you all know, there was no insulting intended for anyone here, whether it appeared disguised or not. This vendor is superior in his customer service and his craft. I never doubted that. He cannot read my mind. I apologize not only to Steve Delk, but to the community as well.

Sometimes as I get caught up in the collecting, I forget that I'm a vendor and not a regular joe. As I am human, I realize my mistake. I cannot and will not from now on post opinions on gear items I get from other vendors if they include "opportunities" about the product. That was my mistake, and I apologize.

Once again, I apologize to you Mr. Delk. You may not, however, have your hat back as I truly love it. You may have, if you accept it, my heartfelt apology and my high respect.

Richard

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:27 pm

It looks like we were all posting at the same time.

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:29 pm

J_Weaver wrote:It looks like we were all posting at the same time.

Thats not true..I was just taking a leak!

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:44 pm

crazylegsmurphy wrote:Thats not true..I was just taking a leak!

Haha...That was the funniest thing I've heard all day!

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:23 pm

The toughest part for me is seeing people that I regard as friends and closer then family fight or disagree. I’m glad this is coming to an end and we can move to patch this up and move on.

Not only because also because I hope all of the venders will continue to be in business long enough for my Grandson's to buy gear of their own in the generations to come but because of my friendship with you all.

Steve's worked hard the past three years and invested in making blocks for each size, and I have the first fedora he ever blocked, and one of his latest. Even though the first was excellent, the newer one is far superior. Imagine the quality of his fedoras in the months and years to come, while they're already as close to perfect that I've ever seen.

Richard here, is also an excellent craftsman, and he's made pretty good leather products, and I also look forward to what he has to offer in the future.

I'm glad this is almost over, and I can't wait till we put it in the rear view mirror.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:35 am

Yeah, let's just drop all of this balderdash. TJ and I are on good terms, and that is the way that I want it. Fans have got to stick together.

Nothing wrong with critique, as that is what this forum is supposed to be about. I have been a bit touchy lately with huge family problems that a couple of you know about. I do not want to go into it, but just suffice to say, I will have a different phone number in the future, and I am moving my hatshop today to another location. Oh, I am moving with it.

This had been one h$$$ish week. So, the Adventurebilt hats will continue to be made, and I guess now, I will have even more time to devote to it. It will pull double duty as a hobby and therapy for awhile. Nothing like making Indy fedoras to take your mind off of problems. regards, Fedora

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:48 am

Fedora wrote:I have been a bit touchy lately with huge family problems that a couple of you know about. I do not want to go into it, but just suffice to say, I will have a different phone number in the future, and I am moving my hatshop today to another location. Oh, I am moving with it. This had been one h$$$ish week. So, the Adventurebilt hats will continue to be made, and I guess now, I will have even more time to devote to it. It will pull double duty as a hobby and therapy for awhile. Nothing like making Indy fedoras to take your mind off of problems. regards, Fedora

Fedora, in italy we say "my heart is with you", maybe there is something similar also in english. I hope you get the meaning my friend.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:06 am

Pagey wrote:I thought that WAS English

Keep your chin up Steve!

Well it was a quick trasnlation.

WConly · Post by **WConly** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:49 pm

You know...I really hate these exchanges! All the voracity that goes into these interchanges, makes me a bit 'ill'. Todd is a great guy and does quality work -- to the best of his abililty! So is Fedora -- same sceanario! Know one really knows just exactly how/what/etc. Indy's hat was truly like other than George Lucas, Steven Speilburg and Harrison Ford, etc. We all perceive things, the way we perceive them -- one man's version of an 'Indy hat' is just that -- his/her perception! What makes a person happy is what counts! So, if you prefer Fedora's hats -- Super! If you prefer HJ's -- Super! If you prefer Todd/Mark's hats -- Super! And, on and on! This debate really gets a bit old and it is a shame...it's kind of like trying to determine what the 'Holly Grail' really is and if it really exists!

Sorry -- just had to put my two cents in here. Can't we all agree to disagree and not beat others up, in the process. W>

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:22 pm

Steve, you are a class act.