X marks the Spot

[crazylegsmurphy]

Hey all,

Does anyone know what "X" the AB is? I keep getting asked this question when I wear my hat, and when I call around to hat places (looking for hat brushes)

I once said pure beaver and the cowboy laughed at me....

Anyone?

[Michaelson]

You know, I've never heard him say other than 'pure beaver' myself, so that say's to me 100%. Oh, laugh back at the cowboy. The 'X' value means absolutely nothing, and never did. Some say each 'X' stood for a value of $10 in value, so a, say, 8x beaver would be an $80 hat, and so forth. Others say it represents a percentage of value to the amount of beaver fur to a base fur, but no one seems to know the formula. So, 'X' value really means little more than a base line. For example, a Camptown by JerseyJones is marked as a 10X Beaver right on the sweatband, but it's known to be a blend, so using that value, Fedora's AB must be an astronomical 'X' value! Regards! Michaelson

[Band Director Jones]

I laugh at the cowboys when they ask me what the "X" count is. I explain to them that the "X" means nothing any more and that very few cowboy hats, no matter what the "X" count, are pure beaver or can come close to the quality of my AB felt. I also try to explain how and why the "X" system has gone the way of the dodo. If they insist upon the "X" count, I tell them that it is "Infinity X".

[Pyroxene]

I'll quote some stuff from a cowboy hat book I have later today. It has some interesting comments regarding this topic. But, BDJ pretty much summed it up.

[crazylegsmurphy]

It's so pure it still has the tail?

Ya...the people I talk to say it must be about 80X or something. I told one lady it was "pure" and she was all, ranting and raving about 100X and she was all like, "Good for you!"

Stupid cowboy!

[IndianaWill]

As Indy remarked, "X never marks the spot"!!!! Quote! :idea:

I thought a little humor would do....

Have a Great Day !

IndianaWill

[Band Director Jones]

I was watching some special on the Travel Channel a few years back. They were doing a special on San Antonio, TX. In the process, they interviewed the owner of a local hat shop, Paris Hatters. The owner (who I a really piece of work) was talking about the different quality of hats and mentioned that the more "X's" a hat was the more beaver it had. He even showed a 200X hat and them mentioned that they have even sold 500X hat before. So how much beaver it in that sucker. I talked to the owner last year and he told me point blank that 100% beaver hats cost way too much to keep in stock for the average customer to buy and NOBODY (hat makers or hat body makers) made 100% beaver in any color other than beached white or natural: browns, grays, and black were our of the question. Then I talked to another hatter who told me (closer to the truth) that the "X" system could mean a lot of thing from the stiffness to the accessories on the hat to the fineness of the finish. Heck, this other hatter even told me that some hat companies will use the same hat, but a different band on it, and double the "X" count. The whole "X" thing reminds me of "This is Spinal Tap" when they are discussing amplifiers:

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

[Michaelson]

BDJ, I can concor with your points on the 'X' branding hype, but your 'spinal tap' example was WAY over the line.

We ALL know THAT part was for real and true!

High regards! Michaelson

[Pyroxene]

It can be so confusing...
The Stetson® 1000X Pinnacle Silver Belly Felt Hat retails for $4,000.00USD.

And, this irritates me to no end that Stetson can produce fantastic cowboy hats but falls short when it comes to making classic dress hats.



Is this the best they can do?

or this one costs $1500

Geez.. I even emailed them asking them if they were ever planning on making hats like they did in the Golden Era. They just pointed me to the nearest retailer who sold their products....

Sorry for the rant..
Pyr.

[Richard~Buxton]

$4,000.00USD?? for a hat? you got to be kidding.

[Fedora]

I agree with the guys here who stated that nowadays, the X's mean very little. Just a marketing tool. At one time, many years ago, they did mean something, and it was generally associated with the beaver content in a hat. The more x's the more beaver fur used to make the felt. One exception was the 7x Stetson and 10x Stetson from the 30's and 40's. Both were practically all beaver fur, with the only difference being the way the hat was finished and trimmed out. One was the deluxe model I guess, as far as the trimmings.

Feltmakers nowadays are apt to lie about the content of their felt. This is common knowledge among hatters, who buy bodies. There are some that are trustworthy, and the folks that I use are one of the few. And that is why so many small custom western hatters use these guys. Their main business lies with western bodies, but they also make dress bodies. It is easy to tell a really high percentage beaver body once you have been exposed to rabbit, the blends and pure beaver. The feel of the felt will speak volumns. You can feel the beaver fur in a hat.


Beaver felt is much more durable than rabbit, or the blends. Just ask any western hatter, who makes hats for work and rough use. There is a reason why it cost more. As far as felt, it is one of the things in which you get what you pay for. Fedora

[crazylegsmurphy]

Ummm...I feel like I just got sold a used car! I'm KIDDING!!

But really, did he just say AB's are pure beaver, or that his supplier doesn't lie....about....I'm confused!

So basically the "X" means nothing....ok...but what is an AB?

[Pyroxene]

In the hatmaking field, felt has traditionally been graded according to its X-factor. The X-factor was originally determined by the density and shape of the material, and ranged in grade from a low of 1X to a high of 10X. Hats made of material rated below 5X generally contained a poorer grade of fur and little or no beaver fur. A 10X hat was made of 100% beaver fur. The X-factor was also a fairly reliable price guide, with a 3X hat costing $30 and a 4X hat costing $40 and a 5X hat costing $50 and so on. Fifty years ago, a 10X Stetson cost $100, was made of 100% pure beaver fur and was the finest hat available.

Today, however, the X-factor rating system is rather subjective. Manufacturers and dealers are not only rating hats differently, each according to its own criteria, but they are also using the X as a price plateau rather than an actual quality rating system. In general, today's X-factor works out like this: a 2X beaver will cost under $100; a 10X beaver about $250; a 30X, $450; and 100X beaver hats generally cost upwards of $1,000. One company's 5X beaver might actually be better than another's 10X - it's a tricky system. Prospective hat buyers are advised to discuss the material's X-factor with the hatmaker or dealer in detail to ascertain the true X-rating. The real test, ultimately, is the look and feel: a good hat is soft and silky.

The Cowboy Hat Book- revised, William Reynolds & Ritch Rand, 2003.

[Baggers]

Bottom line, Fedora ain't tellin'.

Oh well, As a very dear friend once said to someone, when asked about his directing style, "The master does not tell the apprentice everything."

Let's say it's part of the AdventureBilt mystique and leave it that. We're probably obsessing over something trivial in the long run as the X grading system doesn't mean anything anymore. It's still one heck of a hat.

[Fedora]

But really, did he just say AB's are pure beaver, or that his supplier doesn't lie....about....I'm confused!

I said both. AB bodies are pure beaver, and my feltmaker does not lie about them being so. Fedora

[crazylegsmurphy]

Sweet!! Take that you stupid cowboy!!

I'm happy now!....well I always was...but now I have something to throw in thier faces!

[Mulceber]

I said both. AB bodies are pure beaver...

So does that mean if I order a pure rabbit, that I'm REALLY getting pure beaver? I'll take ten please. :junior: -IJ

[J_Weaver]

The "X" doesn't mean a thing anymore. It varies from brand to brand

The quality of the felt in American hats is often designated by a number of X’s, an arbitrary value differing between manufacturers.

[Canyon]

I'm sorry. I don't quite understand...

Sallah: "Indy, if you still want the adventurebuilt with an X, it is being loaded onto a truck for Cairo..."
Indy: "X, what X?"

Please can somebody elucidate and perhaps take a to clarify where the X is.

Many thanks.

[Michaelson]

It's usually stamped on the sweatband of a hat by a lot of hat makers, specifically Western type hat makers. They still cling to the idea that the number of 'X''s on the band is what gives them cause to raise the price accordingly. As has been said above, though, it means absolutely nothing now. Regards! Michaelson

[Pyroxene]

It's obvious it's very confusing and we are people who look at and purchase hat on a regular basis. Imagine what poor Joe Public who just wants a quality hat must feel.

[binkmeisterRick]

You know, Fedora, you could start confusing things even further by using a different letter than "X" and printing it on your sweatbands.

bink

[Marcus Petrius]

Why?

Mike

[Michaelson]

To steal a phrase from the head of the Waltham watch co. back in the 1880's, he was asked why the company put so much time and effort engraving the plates of the watch movements when their customers would probably never ever SEE the inside of the watch case.

He smiled, and said "Because we can, that's why."

Regards! Michaelson

[Marcus Petrius]

Didn't they put extra gold weights in watches as well, just to add to the price while they just could've used copper ones?

Mike

[The Aviator]

I was never to sure what 'x' meant in terms of felt quality although i do have a price list for seratelli hat bodies, i think they are involved mainly in the 'cowboy' hat. not really too sure.

If you cant judge felt by 'x' measurment how do you judge how much to pay for certain felt? maybe just trial and improvment.

[Fedora]

If you cant judge felt by 'x' measurment how do you judge how much to pay for certain felt? maybe just trial and improvment.

A start would be perusing the old posts here. I am sure you will find lots of good info. As far as the x system, a good rule of thumb is if they are trying to sell you x's, look elsewhere. Ask rather, the felt composition(and they may not know it), but this is a good indicator of how fine the felt will be. Generally speaking, the durabilty of the felt would start at pure rabbit, then the various blends, and finally beaver. With rabbit being the least durable. I am not saying that rabbit is not durable, but has less durability than a good blend. Fedora

[Michaelson]

Didn't they put extra gold weights in watches as well, just to add to the price while they just could've used copper ones?

Mike

Clocks? Yes. Watches? No. Regards! Michaelson

[JPdesign]

Because it isn't here yet I will say this:

In a Stetson, Resistal, or Bailey.

2x = wool
3x = rabbit
4x - 7x = beaver content is neglegable, but there is some
8x-10x = maybe 10 - 15% beaver
20x = 50% beaver
30x + = 50 to upwards of 75% Beaver

Bailey
100x = Pure Beaver
200x = Beaver and cashmire

Stetson/Resistol
!00x and 200x = Depends on year, one is a pure Beaver the other is a BEaver and cashmire

Resistol
Touch of mink = Beaver and Mink Blend

Stetson
500x = Depending on year Beaver and mink Blend/beaver and sable blend
1000x = Chinchilla or chinchilla and beaver blend

[Antone]

Thanks JP, very informative!

Would this merit a sticky? I suspect that many folks would love to have this information for reference, myself included.

I'd also love to see this kind of chart for what the indygear vedors who put an x value on their hats mean by that number, since it varies so much. I don't think most folks would use that as the absolute measurement of hat value, since most people here seem to understand that many factors go into the value of a hat, it would just be something to consider...

Also, I've been told that some feltmakers use the x value to signify the parts of the pelt the fur was primarily taken from, and that this also plays a role in the quality of the resulting felt; for example, the idea being that belly fur makes better felt than fur from some other parts of the animal's body. Can any vendors confirm/deny/clarify this?

Thanks,

Antone

[marco polo]

thanks for the info!!

[Fedora]

the idea being that belly fur makes better felt than fur from some other parts of the animal's body. Can any vendors confirm/deny/clarify this?

Depends on the critter. A rabbit, or hare, the best fur is on the back, on a beaver, or other water animal, the belly. Fedora

[Indiana Jerry]

A rabbit, or hare, the best fur is on the back, on a beaver, or other water animal, the belly. Fedora

Scoundrels are aquatic, then. Thanks for clearing that up.