David Morgan Handle Question

Flix4Me · Post by **Flix4Me** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:27 am

Hi all! I've never seen or handled a DM in person and I was wondering something about their construction. I am curious about what makes up the handle underneath the leather. I've read that under the leather is an eight inch spike. Okay. I think I understand that to be a rod that tapers to a point at one end. Now I'm wondering what the diameter of one of these handles is. I know the whip is 8' to 12' feet long and the handle seems to be about 8'' long. So now I want to know how thick the handle is. Can someone help me out with an answer? I obviously have to many useless thoughts in my head, this being just one of them.

KC

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:35 pm

KC,

A few years ago when I was about to start making my first bullwhip I also wondered what the thickness of the spike was on an Indy whip.

At one point, a known whipmaker told me it was 1/4 inch thick. I tried it and found it wasn't heavy enough. Later on, I found that the real thickness of the spike David Morgan uses is 3/8 inch (9.5mm). Also Joe Strain and Paul Nolan use that same spike.

Regards,

Bernardo

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:53 pm

About the 1/4" spike--that wasn't me, was it, Bernardo? If I said that I think I was talking about my own whips and not what DM used.

-Adam

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:04 pm

Hey Adam

No, it wasn't you...I was talking about another whipmaker (I prefer not to mention his name).

I remember we discussed this handle issue some time ago, when you told me you used a 1/4 inch thick handle for your bullwhips, as well as for the cowhide bullwhip you made for me.

By the way, I'm looking forward to get my new cowhide bull made by you...

Regards,

Bernardo

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:20 pm

Bernardo,

Yeah, I remember you still want a whip. I was thinking about a trade but I just ordered a 10 ft. Morgan so I'll have to sell you one instead of trading for one (I kind of need the cash).

I also think that I won't be able to fit a 3/8" spike into a 12-plait whip as you wanted but if I use a smaller spike I can make up the weight with lead loading in the butt.

-Adam

Flix4Me · Post by **Flix4Me** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:38 pm

Ahem... Sorry to interrupt...

I'm surprised that the spike is so thin. Very interesting.

From your discussion about weight, am I correct in understanding that the spike is in fact made of metal?

KC

Flix4Me · Post by **Flix4Me** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:23 pm

Oops! I just checked in on the thread and realized that I forgot to say "Thank you".

My thanks to you, Bernardodc, for answering my question. And the discussion between you and winrichwhips has helped me to further understand the handle construction.

Cheers!

KC

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:32 pm

Your are welcome KC!

Yes, the spike is metallic. It basically looks like a giant nail. To add more weight, Mr. Morgan wraps lead (roofing tape) around the spike.

As far as handles go, that spike is thick. Most whipmakers tend to use thinner rods. Unless the bellies encircle the handle like a bolster (instead of being braided over it) you'll end up with a very fat handle.

Hope that helped,

Bernardo

bodhidiver · Post by **bodhidiver** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:07 am

Here are some pics of my Morgan against a measurement grid.

http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/neosporing

DocIndyJones · Post by **DocIndyJones** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:08 am

Is there anyway for a whip to be made so it doesn't have the solid handle? You know so it's all flexable? Had anyone ever done this? Can it be done?

-Doc

Simon Martin · Post by **Simon Martin** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:48 am

Hi Doc

That sort of whip is called a Snakewhip. I have only ever made one, and I think they are useless. When you crack it there is very little control over the whip because it has no handle.

Hi Bodhidiver

I noticed something very interesting on your bullwhip on photo No. 4.
Only us whipmakers might pick it up!

Regards

Simon
www.whipmaker.com.au

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:00 am

Simon Martin wrote:Hi Doc

Hi Bodhidiver

I noticed something very interesting on your bullwhip on photo No. 4.
Only us whipmakers might pick it up!

Regards

Simon
www.whipmaker.com.au

Simon,

Are you talking about the knot?

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:14 am

Looks like there's one extra third pass in that two-pass turk's head.
Actually, I really, really like the looks of that bullwhip. If my 10 footer ends up looking that good I'll be through the roof

Simon,

Just out of curiosity, what's the price for the yellow and black super-fancy stockwhip that might end up on eBay?

-Adam, www.winrichwhips.com

Flix4Me · Post by **Flix4Me** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:27 am

bodhidiver wrote:Here are some pics of my Morgan against a measurement grid.

http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/neosporing

Thanks! They help me fill in some more blanks in my mental picture.

Keep discussing. I'm learning things!

KC

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:47 pm

Bodhidiver,

Great pics! very interesting...that whip looks awesome.

I recognize the cutting mat used for the background...those pics look similar to some showed some time ago of a "Strain" bullwhip from WSP. Am I correct?

You were supossed to get a replacement new Strain, 8 ft. Did you take any pics of it? do you still have it?

Thanks,

Bernardo

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:52 pm

I also used a green rotary mat to show off my DM and Webley on my website. The color helps the items show up better on screen.

DocIndyJones · Post by **DocIndyJones** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:00 pm

So are there differtent handle lengths? To fit different size hands? What about something in the handle that still is stong like the spike but alittle more flexible?

-Doc

Robert Duke · Post by **Robert Duke** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:55 pm

Lots of points to cover....

I use an 8" x 3/8" nail/spike for the foundation of my bullwhip handles. Occasionally someone may want a 10 or 12" handle. Then I would buy the appropriate length requested, but almost usually its 8".

A snakewhip is a whip without a handle. Simon, I wouldn't say it's useless.,.. for multiple cracking as used by stockwhips, of course not. It has its uses by cowboys and other sorts and sometimes martial artists as a self defense weapon that can also be easily concealed. The snake is called that because it can coil up and look like a snake in a coil. Eliminating the handle allows for the snake to be carried in a pocket.. something that you can't do with a bullwhip. Some snakes are even called pocket snakes and they have a bit smaller diameter than other snakes.
Most of the snakes that I have made have a very small stiff handle about 2 to 3" that is hardly noticeable but is a good foundation... still some request absolutely no handle whatsoever...
Most snakewhip users like them short. I have a 5 foot shot loaded 2 tone that I like to carry. Its very compact. I've made them all lengths, colors and plaits. I sent one 12 foot 16 plait 2 tone snakewhip to a man in Colorado who was confined to a wheelchair. I bet that wasn't so easy to crack.

I use cane handles in some of my bullwhips. Its the same cane as I use for making stockwhips. Its called toheti cane. It has a bit of flex in it. One I recently made had a 16" toheti cane handle which I call a "hybrid" bullwhip. It has the long handle much like a stockwhip with similar action, but with thong attached to the handle as in any normal bullwhip. I made it for a stage performer/director. He loves it.

Just recently got an order for a bullwhip from Sarasota, Florida for a bullwhip that will be used in the U.S. Open Karate Championships in Orlando, Florida coming up next month. He is wanting to use the bullwhip as a modern weapon and design a kata - routine with it. I am supposed to get videos after its over. That will be interesting to see. He wants to swing it with both ends. First swing it by the tail, then grab the handle and crack it.
The only thing I recommended that he not get such a long whip. The tournament rings are not that big. He'll be knocking out some of the judges with it!

Thats about it for now I suppose.. back to the shop!

deadringer · Post by **deadringer** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:27 pm

Hi all
You could use a small bit of twisted rawhide as the handle foundation . Then flexability could be determained by the diameter and how tight it has been twisted.Have played with this idea a bit and it seems to be very effective especially for snakewhips.Rawhide is very versitle stuff and very strong.

We have a couple of snake whips around the house but these are made of heavey twisted wire about 8 foot long sole purpose the removal of snakes from the house yard, funny enough the offending snakes are mostly whip snakes(not good with small children about) ,once you see one of these guys you immediately know why they are called whip snake such a beautiful taper that only nature could perfect .

Cheers
Chris Barr
www.deadringer.com.au

Indiana_Hall · Post by **Indiana_Hall** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:19 pm

Robert Duke wrote: I use cane handles in some of my bullwhips. Its the same cane as I use for making stockwhips. Its called toheti cane. It has a bit of flex in it. One I recently made had a 16" toheti cane handle which I call a "hybrid" bullwhip. It has the long handle much like a stockwhip with similar action, but with thong attached to the handle as in any normal bullwhip. I made it for a stage performer/director. He loves it.

Robert,

If you don't mind my asking, how thick is the cane piece you are using? I'd be curious to try to making a bullwhip this way, so you sparked my curiosity....

High Regards,
-Indiana_Hall

bodhidiver · Post by **bodhidiver** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:58 am

Bernardodc wrote:Bodhidiver,

Great pics! very interesting...that whip looks awesome.

I recognize the cutting mat used for the background...those pics look similar to some showed some time ago of a "Strain" bullwhip from WSP. Am I correct?

You were supossed to get a replacement new Strain, 8 ft. Did you take any pics of it? do you still have it?

Thanks,

Bernardo

It's a picture of David Morgan. I'll have to send you a PM with regards to the other bits of information you were asking about.

Robert Duke · Post by **Robert Duke** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:40 pm

Indiana_Hall wrote:[
If you don't mind my asking, how thick is the cane piece you are using? I'd be curious to try to making a bullwhip this way, so you sparked my curiosity....
High Regards,
-Indiana_Hall

I have some pieces that range from almost 5/8" to nearly 7/8". On some of my stockwhips I split the cane and lined it with spring steel so that it wouldn't be too flexible and give it some strength. Most Aussie whipmakers do this on their stockwhips.

Robert Duke

Indiana_Hall · Post by **Indiana_Hall** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:41 am

Robert,

I can see using the 5/8" thick piece on a stockwhip, but is that the same thickness you use for your bullwhip handles?

High Regards, Indiana_Hall

Robert Duke · Post by **Robert Duke** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:27 pm

Indiana_Hall wrote:I can see using the 5/8" thick piece on a stockwhip, but is that the same thickness you use for your bullwhip handles?

That is not what I use on my Indy handles or the majority of my other bullwhips that I make. It is what I use on the "hybrid bullwhips". They've been hybridized with the stockwhip. I use a 16" cane handle for the hybrid bulls that I make for a whip that performs like a stock. Those performers and competitors that use stockwhips for mulitple cracking routines and competitions know what I am talking about. You get a lot more advantage from that handle length for doing volleys, arrowheads, etc., etc.
Its what I used in Claremore OK at the Will Rogers Wild West Expo / WWAC convention two months ago in the one and two whip freestyle competitions. I won an outstanding looking buckle that said Whip Cracking Champion for most points for one and two whips.

I love the short handled bullwhip, make no mistake about it, but for the very fancy stuff I want the long handled hydrids and stockwhips.

There's my nickels worth because I don't have two cents.

Robert Duke