Jacket Design

[J_Weaver]

If this has been mentioned before then I apologize. I stumbled across something today that suprised me. The position of the yoke on the Raiders jacket is higher than the psoition of the yoke of the ToD and LC jackets. I've known for sometime that the yoke on the modern Raiders jackets is lower than than the original jacket. But I was shocked to find that the yokes of the original ToD and LC jackets were also lower. In fact they are where the modern yokes are. Its not really important, but I surprised me when I saw it.

Raiders

ToD

LC

[Skippy]

NOW YOU RAISE THIS!?!



Seriously, wish I'd seen some of this a week ago, might of eased my heart-ache over my yoke seam issues (see my thread below).

You are entirely right on all accounts. Interestingly I was under the impression the yoke seem was dropped by Wested due to issues from Gear-Heads not being happy with the Action Pleats staying open all the time, but evidently it pre-dates that in a BIG way

I do know that you can get a Raiders made with the old smaller yoke, as one of the cutters at Wested was showing me the pattern the other day.

But it's a pain in the butt for them & will cost you an extra £10 on the price for the aggro + you can't exchange/return it if your not happy, as it will be a custom alteration.

I'm under the impression there might also be an issue with restriction on movement, as in the same shoulder & yoke seam problems I've got, by having the raised seam + any effect on the action pleats (although I think it would help with keeping them better closed )

BTW can you lighten those pics at all? I've got my monitor on full blast & still can see the seam in that ROTL pic

John

[J_Weaver]

You are entirely right on all accounts. Interestingly I was under the impression the yoke seem was dropped by Wested due to issues from Gear-Heads not being happy with the Action Pleats staying open all the time, but evidently it pre-dates that in a BIG way

I thought the same thing. I was just looking at some various Indys pics today and noticed this. Apparently the change was made sometime between Raiders and ToD. At least my ToD Wested is screen accurate.

I don't under stand all the fuss with the action peats. The higher yoke of the Raiders jackets actually allows the action pleats to work better, because it puts the pleat on your shoulder instead of your armpit.

I'm considering getting a Wested Raiders sometime this summer. If I do the higher yoke will be a request I'll make along with no hand warmer pockets.

P.S. I'll see what I can do with the pic.

[agent5]

I don't under stand all the fuss with the action peats. The higher yoke of the Raiders jackets actually allows the action pleats to work better, because it puts the pleat on your shoulder instead of your armpit.

I'm considering getting a Wested Raiders sometime this summer. If I do the higher yoke will be a request I'll make along with no hand warmer pockets.

Correct, correct, correct. I've said that along with a handful of others now for some time. However, try as you might, I've asked Peter on several occasions to move the yoke seam up and it has not been done to a single one of my jackets. If I'm not mistaken, Got Maul told me Peter simply refused when he asked for it to be done. Something about the back panels already having a pattern they use to cut them with. I'd love to have this done to one of my jackets.

OOOOOOOHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...... to get just ONE jacket to be as perfect as I'd requested. I feel a miracle of God would have to occur.

[Shawnkara]

Yup, Agent5 myself and a few others have been preaching this for years. I just brought it up in a recent thread last week, actually. It seems that the three designs offered by Wested are somewhat "standardized" in certain respects. The Raiders yoke was much higher and the pleats ran up onto the shoulders, where they belong, for this design to even function properly. They definately should not stop at your armpits. Wested is the best Indy jacket, period. But there STILL does not exist a truly accurate Raiders jacket.

[Rob]

See, this confuses me. Doesn't the Wested certificate say it was essentially cut from "the" pattern? If this was the case, wouldn't the Wested be correct, and interpretations by fans off their Raiders video or DVD as to where the yoke should be, could be, perhaps, flawed?

[Shawnkara]

often that is the case, Rob. But when you see Ford's pleats up on his shoulders and your own Wested has them stopping right at your armpit, it's hard to call that a misinterpretation of the film image. It's like trying to say his hat had no ribbon. You're right, a lot this stuff is open to interpretation, but some things are just really obvious.

[agent5]

No, no. Peter knows all about this and he does state a reason for doing so. He said that you have less movement in the arms and sholders if the yoke is moved to where it is on the screen.
Personally I don't care, I just want it to look exactly as it did in the film, restricted movement or not. I also think it would take the waviness out of my action pleats and lay them down flatter.

[J_Weaver]

No, no. Peter knows all about this and he does state a reason for doing so. He said that you have less movement in the arms and sholders if the yoke is moved to where it is on the screen.
Personally I don't care, I just want it to look exactly as it did in the film, restricted movement or not. I also think it would take the waviness out of my action pleats and lay them down flatter.

Yup, I agree. It seems to me that with the yoke higher you would have more freedom of movement because the action pleats would be able to work better.

I love my Wested and would love to have another, but it seems to me that Wested is trying to move away from the custom jacket and toward off the shelf jackets. I don't understand why they won't make custom changes like the yoke and pockets. I've seen several totally custom jackets made by Wested. Why they don't want to modify the Indy jacket is beyond me. Of course I understand that they can't resale a custom jacket. But for those of us who have delt with Wested before there would be little chance of problems with a custom jacket as far as fit goes.

[J_Weaver]

Skippy, I tried to brighten the pic. The top red X is the yoke. The bottom red X is the sleeve seam. On all modern Westeds (as well as the ToD & LC jackets) the yoke and sleeve seam meet at the same point.

Raiders[/url]

[BendingOak]

j_weaver,I 'll have to get some pics (To see if I'm correct ) but mine is like the pics you just posted.

[J_Weaver]

I can well understand those who want the jacket screen accurate - but I can equally understand why Peter should refuse to make an alteration which he felt would reduce the quality of his product. I certainly don't feel he's moving towards "off the peg" - I think he's a saint for trying to meet all our nit-picky demands.

Agreed.

Me too!

I'm not in anyway trying to bash Peter or his jackets. I'm just making a few observations. Overall the position of the yoke is a minor point. My ToD Wested is by far the finest jacket I've ever owned. When I ordered my jacket I was lucky enough to get to place the order directly with Peter. I hope I can do it again before too long.

[J_Weaver]

Tone,

Your theory may not be too far off. In a few scenes I've noticed how the yoke seems to almost make an arc from the center of his back to the edge of the shoulder. So who knows, it may have been modified on set? But like I said, its really a minor point in a great jacket.

[BendingOak]

j_weaver, here's the pic I promised I would post. I can't tell for sure, sometimes I think it's like the last crusades shot you posted and then maybe the raiders shot you posted. You tell me.http://tinypic.com/view.html?pic=5bsje8

[Shawnkara]

It's not really speculation for me in regards to the functionality. I used to wear those awful uniform coveralls where I used to work. I owned my first Wested at that time. Those coveralls had the pleats all the way up to the shoulder seam and there was no yoke. The further up the shoulder the pleats run, the more range and freedom you get.

Pagey, I think you're right about the patterns. As I recall Lee Keppler's original jacket was WAY off from Raiders. If the patterns were always there, why did that happen? I think the current Raiders patterns are a sort of blend between LC and that jacket. And Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't it true that the ToD jackets were not even made by Wested? I could swear it's in here someplace that those were done by some French company. Yet Wested offers a certified original reproduction.

[J_Weaver]

jpenman,

WOW! I've never seen one like that before. It looks higher than the ToD and LC, but not quite as high as the Raiders. On my ToD the yoke and shoulder seams meet at the same point. Yours looks about 3/4" or so higher. Did you order a Raiders model?


Shawn,
I think that Wested made the original, but sometime in production they needed some more quick and had a French company make a few.

[BendingOak]

J-weaver, yes I ordered the raiders. I talked with my wife about this who has a disign background and works for Nike in apparel. she say's it doesn't make any sense to alter the yoke after the jacket was made. Better to make the jacket over again. I don't know how much this helps.

[Shawnkara]

J_,
Thanks for clearing that up I'd always been a little unsure what to make of it. I know Peter and Wested have too much integrity to offer a replica of something they did not make. So I guess the French-made jackets were rapid Wested knock-offs? I know I've read that Ford really hated some of the ToD jackets.

By the way, I've been meaning to ask, how did that pith helmet source work out for your Dad? Did he get one?

[J_Weaver]

By the way, I've been meaning to ask, how did that pith helmet source work out for your Dad? Did he get one?

He had beat us to it. He already has a few of their helmets!
Thanks anyway though.

[Renderking Fisk]

I used to wear those awful uniform coveralls where I used to work. I owned my first Wested at that time. Those coveralls had the pleats all the way up to the shoulder seam and there was no yoke. The further up the shoulder the pleats run, the more range and freedom you get.

Is there any way you can get pictures of this phenomenon?

I'm trying to explain to some people about why funtion is more important then form or "style" but they don't seem to get it. If you had some pics of this I would really appreciate it.

<My words aren't getting through to these people... I guess I don't understand their language - They Speak in "Moronic".>

[J_Weaver]

<My words aren't getting through to these people... I guess I don't understand their language - They Speak in "Moronic".>

So Ren, what are you trying to explain to Jess and Bink? Sorry guys, I couldn't pass it up.

[BendingOak]

J-weaver, question for you or anyone who can answer it. Is the length of the jacket for both TOD and LC both shorter than the one for raiders.

[Zach R.]

The TOD and LC are one inch longer aren't they?

[BendingOak]

The reason I ask is my wife say's the only way to move up the yoke is to shorten the whole jacket. This could be the reason the Raiders jacket is shorter than the others.

[J_Weaver]

The TOD and LC are one inch longer aren't they?

The ToD jacket is 1" longer than the Raiders jacket, but I'm not sure about the LC jacket.

[Shawnkara]

Ren,
I don't have the coveralls anymore, but maybe I can still pics for you. There's a store here kinda like Tractor Supply that has that style. I'll try to make it out there this weekend and try on a pair, have my wife snap a few pics.

[Texas Raider]

I've heard that it is not as simple as just moving the seam. They have to shorten the yolk and lengthen the back panel. It pretty much changes the dimensions and seams of several pieces, apparently. I don't quite understand it myself. It seems like you'd just need to move the seam up and leave everything else the same. All I know is that Flightsuits did it right. I'll post a pic of mine. I really like Wested, but honestly, the Flightsuits has all the specs right, and you really don't need any custom mods. Raised seam, underarm gussets, tapered back panel, all of the bells and whistles-stock!

have a nice day.

[J_Weaver]

Moving the yoke of an existing jacket is impossible for all pratical puropes. Because if the yoke is 1" shorter then the back panel and action pleats must be 1" longer; otherwise you'll have a jacket that is too short.

However, making a jacket with the shorter yoke should be no harder than making any other jacket. I'm not sure how much shorter the yoke on the raiders jacket was, but it appears to be about 1". So, imo all that has to be done to make a Raiders jacket with the higher yoke is this: Put the front panel of a Raiders together with the back panel and action pleats of a ToD, then connect them with the higher yoke.

Now if Peter belives that the lower yoke is better/more functional than that is good enough for me. Besides, he's the expert.

[BendingOak]

[quote]Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 9:57 am    Post subject:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moving the yoke of an existing jacket is impossible for all pratical puropes. Because if the yoke is 1" shorter then the back panel and action pleats must be 1" longer; otherwise you'll have a jacket that is too short.

However, making a jacket with the shorter yoke should be no harder than making any other jacket. I'm not sure how much shorter the yoke on the raiders jacket was, but it appears to be about 1". So, imo all that has to be done to make a Raiders jacket with the higher yoke is this: Put the front panel of a Raiders together with the back panel and action pleats of a ToD, then connect them with the higher yoke.

• j-weaver, you are correct.
  
  
  
  
  im very happy where mine is placed.

[Richard~Buxton]

I just hope I don't get a yoke problem with my new Raiders Wested.

[J_Weaver]

Oh, don't worry Cryptid, there won't be any problem. I hope we haven't scared you. Really though, its just a small point that doesn't make a hoot of a difference.

[Richard~Buxton]

No problem, I'm not scared about it. I know how picky us Gearheads can be.

[agent5]

Yeah. There is nothing at all wrong with the way Wested is currently making them. I'm just completely obsessed with screen accuracy and don't wear my jacket for most of the time. I have another Wested for that which isn't screen accurate at all but I don't care. I just want my costume jacket to be as dead on as possible. The yoke seam is still not the way I wanted it but everything else is great.

[Shawnkara]

It really sohuldn't be that hard of a modification. No, you can't modify an exisiting jacket this way, but at the source, it would be easy. All you need to do is shorted the bottom of the yoke. This also means you have lengthen the back panel to match. Also, since it's a tapered design, you mya have to adjust the top width of the back panel after it's made longer. With the taper the farther out those lines are taken the wider it will become expoentially. But it would only be about one inch overall to bring it back to the proper width. It's not a difficult change to make with a pattern, and you need only do it once. Now, granted, my experience with talioring is limited to 1:6 scale. But my little Indy jackets are put together in the same way, with the same number of panels. Smaller, but the principal is the same.
I've noticed as well that on the Raiders jacket the collar seems to extend farther down the chest and the tip of the stormflap sits lower, as well. You could hit all three birds by moving the back of the collar stand further back into the yoke. This would make the collar a bit longer. It would also mean you would have to pull the jacket further forward on your body to bring the collar to rest against your neck. Doing this wouls pull the yoke and pleats up, it would put the shoulder seams at the center of the shoulder, drop the collar and stormflap down and eliminate the need for that extra inch in the front that some people request. At least that's what I've learned from constantly making and refining patterns for the 12" figures.

[Texas Raider]

Here are pics of my Gibson and Barnes jacket. The yolk is correct on these jackets and the fit is fine! This actually fits BETTER than a Wested I used to have, and it is specifically because of the shorter yolk and longer back panel. I could easily tell when I put them on ,back to back ,that the Wested restricts your movement with the way it is currently made

[/url]






have a nice day.

[Michaelson]

That's because all of the measurements for your jacket (FS/Gibson and Barnes) were taken directly from a privately owned Raiders stunt jacket, so it will reflect the original design of the yoke. Regards! Michaelson

[Texas Raider]

So why is Wested so adamant about not doing it this way?


have a nice day.

[BendingOak]

texas raider , my wested looks just like that.

[J_Weaver]

No, I don't think so. By looking at screens shots it looks like a change in the pattern was made between Raiders and ToD.

[PETER]

When I say that the jackets are custom made I mean that the jacket is individually cut and made to fit the customer according to their measurements based on the existing patterns for only £145.
To actually have a design change would mean patterning and at £20 per hour for a pattern cutter is not cost effective although it can be done at extra cost.
The reason the back yoke was lengthened a couple of years ago was to stop the jacket riding up off the back collar, to stop the action pleats from bellowing and improve the general fit.
The reason we did not put this on the lower panel is that we would struggle to get that size one piece panel out of sheep or goatskin.
To reduce the yoke depth would mean increasing the back panel legth and shape and also the shape and length of the action pleat to fit the arm section so it is not just a cut an inch off.
You also must bear in mind that we are trying to fit from short to tall, big to small all with the same style of jacket fitting perfectly and I can tell you
that not many of you are Harrison Ford's size.
Hope that claries
Cheers
Peter

[Swindiana]

Tone;
If you happen to get hold of a copy of "Great movie stunts & Making of Raiders of the Lost Ark" on VHS, this makes it even clearer that there are no action pleats on that jacket. I was surprized myself to see it on the DVD and then watching this old 'making of' made it even more obvious.
I wonder if more of the stunts jackets looked like this, or if this was just one some other people made in a hurry...

Regards,
Swindiana

[J_Weaver]

Peter, thanks for stepping in and setting us straight. I think we all can understand that making custom changes is not very efficent.

[taikonaut]

Hi Peter,
Good to see you drop by. I too are looking forward to ordering an Indy Jacket from your company, I wanted horse hide but Gemma said that there is no stocks at the moment, any idea when you expect new stocks? I realised on your website the shipping costs to the UK is the same as Europe and US is there a reason for this since as a UK customer one would expect delivery cost to be lower? I dont want to sound penny pinching but any money saved can go towards extra detailing or other Indy gears.

[Lao Feng]

"...and I can tell you that not many of you are Harrison Ford's size. "



Peter--Thanks for my first belly laugh of the week! You are a man of interminable patience and good humor!

Very Best Regards!