Venice Pier Scene Fedora Photo?(Raiders grey fed discussion)

[Kaleponi Craig]

I've been looking for a photo of Indy's gray fedora from the LC Venice pier scene. Does anyone have this?

Thanks, Kaleponi Craig

[Mattdeckard]

Indy never wore a grey fedora in the venice pier scene.

[Sergei]

That was not a grey fedora in the Venice pier scene.

In fact it is redish brown. Almost like the Raider's Raven bar scene.


-Sergei

[Kaleponi Craig]

I guess I'm thinking of the Pan Am San Francisco scene and the halls of congress in ROTLA?

KC

[J_Weaver]

Wow! I just noticed that the color of my pure rabbit AB is a ringer for the Venice pier hat. I'll have to check out the DVD.

[Vegeta1126]

Hmm is this what you are talking about? Cause it actually does look grey never noticed that before.

[Kaleponi Craig]

Yes, that's it. But isn't the fedora at the end of ROTLA in the halls of Congress also gray?

Kaleponi Craig

[Michaelson]

Yes. Way back in yon olden days, Richard Swales told me he made a grey for Raiders, as well as a bunch of brown HJ fedoras. I'm betting this grey is the same one used in the end scene as well. Regards. Michaelson

[Fedora]

Going by that pic. the ribbon looks brown. Generally, you don't see brown ribbons on gray hats. Fedora

[Michaelson]

Looks black on my monitor, and I'm looking at a flat screen. Don't cha just love monitors! Regards. Michaelson

[Dakota Ellison]

I think the gray is really a very light brown, thus the dark brown ribbon.

[Mattdeckard]

I can't see how this could be a brown hat.

All I see is the Grey hat and black ribbon.

I went over to MK's old office once and we went over the frames.

He visited the plane where the pics were taken, the plane had the same fabric on the seats as when the movie was made. After color matching the pics he took to the pics in the movie, he and I agreed that the hat in those seen is grey. The ribbon I think is black.

I think the ribbon has a reflective quality like that of the ribbon used on the current Borsalinos.

[Michaelson]

Matt, I know you've told us before, but what make is that gorgous grey hat in your photo? Regards. Michaelson

[Mattdeckard]

That's your namesake from Peters Brothers.

Not a great material for a felt hat, though the hat looks very nice. It's a 7 1/4 and for sale

I wore it for about 3 months.

High crown and dimentional brim with Lapel string
and my initials, JB. for sale at $140

[Michaelson]

I wasn't sure, but it sure looks nice in the sunlight. I didn't recognize it with the windtrolley, considering mine snapped off. Thanks! Regards. Michaelson

[Serial Hero]

I still think that is a brown hats in the plane scene, it just looks grey on screen due to the type of film used, reflective light from the set, film speed, ect. If you watch the scene as Indy is coming up the stairs, sun light from a window shines on him and the hat is brown. It just looks grey for the rest of the shot because the cabin is dark. It is similar for Band of Brothers (Just using this for comparison, not to get off topic). All the paratroopers wear Kaki uniforms, but due to the film and camera speed, all the uniforms look brown.

[Dakota Ellison]

That's what I see.

[J_Weaver]

It is similar for Band of Brothers (Just using this for comparison, not to get off topic). All the paratroopers wear Kaki uniforms, but due to the film and camera speed, all the uniforms look brown.

Oh no...Let's not start that is it really kaki debate.

As for the hat. I say its grey. It just seems to odd that a brown hat would look grey only in the scenes where he's wearing a suit. The hat itself looks different than any other hat in the movie. Its unturned, clean, the flat brim. Its will be grey in my eyes until someone can give me hard evidence otherwise. Just my 2 cents though.

[Hemingway Jones]

I am up in the air as to what color it is. I have taken pictures of my Akubra in which it looks green, brown, or gray, depending on lighting, etc.

I think it has to do with how a camera "sees" color. If you have similar colors in the same frame the camera will often make them look the same unless you meter the camera on a neutral background first. For instance, I have a Dalmatian. If I take a picture of her in snow, she is lost; the snow and her fur come out as the same color. If I take my settings pointed at her, then meter the camera on a neutral field, like the back of someone's parka, then restore the settings and take the shot, you can differentiate the subtle color in her fur: from tan to ivory and the shadows in the snow, the blues, whites, and golds.

Perhaps, the camera was "seeing" Indy's brown fedora as gray against the darker and grayish backgrounds.

[Richard Croft]

I noticed a change in colours considerably when photographing in Snow. Things changed colours depending on the setting of the white balance on the camera.

I couldn't comment on weather that hat is grey or not though.

[Mattdeckard]

If the clipper hat is brown... then I'm the Prince of Monaco.

[Kaleponi Craig]

Check out the scene where Indy sits in his seat in the Pan Am Clipper and puts his hat over his eyes. I'm sure it's gray. There is a lot of light because he's next to the window, so the color should be true.

Kaleponi Craig

[Mattdeckard]

[Sergei]

Just my 2 dunars on the subject. One way to settle this, just bring up a photo editor. After placing the cursor right on the brim (the shot of Indy going up the staircase), the RGB value is: 96 92 92. The crown area right above the bow is: 80 70 69. There is a hint of brown there guys. Another way is bring up a pantone chart on gray. You can see it the gray is a close match to "Gray 60". Throw in a little brown, and you have the color dialed right in.

But of course the argument falls apart due to lens filters, color temperature of the film, light going through the windows, etc. But grabbing the color as it comes through the monitor, is fairly convincing...

-Sergei

[Hemingway Jones]

Just my 2 dunars on the subject. One way to settle this, just bring up a photo editor. After placing the cursor right on the brim (the shot of Indy going up the staircase), the RGB value is: 96 92 92. The crown area right above the bow is: 80 70 69. There is a hint of brown there guys. Another way is bring up a pantone chart on gray. You can see it the gray is a close match to "Gray 60". Throw in a little brown, and you have the color dialed right in.

But of course the argument falls apart due to lens filters, color temperature of the film, light going through the windows, etc. But grabbing the color as it comes through the monitor, is fairly convincing...

-Sergei

So... are you saying it was brown???

[Sergei]

No, heavens no. It's gray, with a slight hint of brown. On the pantone chart it looks like Gray60. But there is some brown, very slight.

[Hemingway Jones]

No, heavens no. It's gray, with a slight hint of brown. On the pantone chart it looks like Gray60. But there is some brown, very slight.

That's very forensic! Isn't there a scene when he is outside before he gets on the plane? That hat should be the same or do we assume the interior shots are a different cut / scene / filming day / hat?

[Feraud]

Have we established the color of his suits from the airplane/Halls of Congress scenes? Grey or black would dictate a grey fedora, right?
Other colors would go with a brown...
Just another .02 cents thrown into the mix.

[Mattdeckard]

I believe the suit is navy

[Feraud]

I believe the suit is navy

If one were to wear a navy suit, a grey fedora would top it off, correct?
I guess you could wear a brown fedora with a navy suit but we are not talking about present day ideas of style but rather those of the 30-40's.

[Fedora]

If you zoom up on the white suited Nazi, from the streets of Cairo, he appears to be wearing a gray hat. In that zoom, you can see where that hat at one time had a razor crease in the front. Looks almost like they tooks Ford's gray fedora and popped out the creases and let the Nazi wear it. If so, then the hat is gray, as easily seen in the sunlight. Is this the same as Ford wears? I dunno. Fedora

[Sergei]

Yikes, we are getting off topic, but this is a good question. Grey fedora's pretty much go with everything. Brown is problematic (btw, I am NOT saying the seaplane fedora is brown, it's gray with a slight hint of brown). Brown fedora's are great with "earth" tones.

Go to this site below that shows the color palette combinations. Here are the palette combinations for brown:
http://desktoppub.about.com/od/colorpal ... pbrown.htm

Here is grey:
http://desktoppub.about.com/od/colorpal ... cpgray.htm

[Bufflehead Jones]

Check out the scene where Indy sits in his seat in the Pan Am Clipper and puts his hat over his eyes. I'm sure it's gray. There is a lot of light because he's next to the window, so the color should be true.

Kaleponi Craig

It is very tight inside an airplane and not much room for a camera crew to move around. They probably just made a small set and had Indy sitting there next a fake window with artificial light outside of it. Since they really didn't give you a good view out the window, they didn't even need a rear projection screen or any kind of background. So, just because Indy is next to a window, I would not assume that this shot is in natural light.

[Serial Hero]

Feraud wrote:

I guess you could wear a brown fedora with a navy suit

As Indy does in Last Crusade

[Mattdeckard]

1. The shots inside the plane were done in the plane and not on a set.
2. He never wore a navy colored suit in Last Crusade.


Why is it that whenever I wear a brown hat that it always comes out brown in my pics, even when I'm near a window.

[Sergei]

I am confused... Did I say the seaplane fedora was brown? ) I said by looking at the pantone chart it looked like Gray60.

[Mattdeckard]

You said it was grey... so did I.

[Rixter]

I once had a bookmark of a site that I was given that supposedly ran a little program to universally calibrate your monitor to pantone colors on this site once run so that it would aid web users to see the same colors that others see on THEIR monitors. I recall being skeptical at the time that it could calibrate the wide variety of monitors, and models available, not to mention a variety of other problems, so I never did try it.

I suppose this is a useless reply since I can't recall the site(s), but perhaps someone else is aware of this, or a similar site, that does something similar, ...maybe.

[J_Weaver]

If you zoom up on the white suited Nazi, from the streets of Cairo, he appears to be wearing a gray hat. In that zoom, you can see where that hat at one time had a razor crease in the front. Looks almost like they tooks Ford's gray fedora and popped out the creases and let the Nazi wear it. If so, then the hat is gray, as easily seen in the sunlight. Is this the same as Ford wears? I dunno. Fedora

I noticed the same thing the last time I watched Raiders.

P.S. Matt, I agree, I always though the suit was navy.

[Bufflehead Jones]

1. The shots inside the plane were done in the plane and not on a set.

How do you know? Were you there when they filmed the scene or did you read it somewhere?

[Sergei]

1. The shots inside the plane were done in the plane and not on a set.

How do you know? Were you there when they filmed the scene or did you read it somewhere?

Well, here is the documentation:
http://www.indygear.com/museum/geography.shtml
http://www.indygear.com/props/fboat.shtml
http://www.harrisonfordmedia.com/vacati ... y_eng.html

There is nothing on record that indicates clipper ship interior was filmed in studio. There has been a few fans that visited the clipper ship and one of which was MK. He took extensive notes and pictures.
Here's some shots from MK's visit:



However, we are open minded. Could you share with us any detail that would indicate it was shot at Elstree Studios or any studio interior location?

[Hemingway Jones]

There is nothing on record that indicates clipper ship interior was filmed in studio. There has been a few fans that visited the clipper ship and one of which was MK. He took extensive notes and pictures.
Here's some shots from MK's visit:

Now, is it just me or does MK's hat look black or maybe dark gray????

[Bufflehead Jones]

However, we are open minded. Could you share with us any detail that would indicate it was shot at Elstree Studios or any studio interior location?

I don't have any further information, that is why I was asking a question. I skimmed through all of the documentation looking for anything about the filming of Raiders and I didn't see anything from one of the filmmakers indicating that the interiors of the plane were shot there. They possibly were. But, I still haven't seen anything conclusive. It said they used the plane during the filming of Raiders, but they could have been just referring to the exteriors.

They have a lot pf people and equipment to fit in a small space when filming a movie. The interior of a plane is not very spacious. The steadicam has been in use since about 1970, and they may have used this to film inside the plane. I don't know. That is why I was asking if anyone has any personal knowledge of this or was it merely speculation on their part.

I am not a moviemaker and I do not claim to be. But, I have worked on the set while they were filming a major motion picture and I have seen how they work. They are extremely talented people and if you see how they do some of these things, it amazes you that they can trick your eye into believing some of these things are real.

For an example, I worked on the set while they were filming the movie Pelican Brief. I know from having watched them film the scene, that when Denzel Washington is out jogging and is returning home and hears his phone ringing and runs up on the porch, that exterior shot was done at a townhouse in Georgetown. As he opens his front door, and steps inside his townhouse, he is now on a set in a wharehouse in Bowie, Maryland. The transition is seamless and even though I watched them do it, I can't believe it when I watch the movie.

The sets they build are incredible looking and so real even when looking at them up close in person. In this case, they shot the interiors of his townhouse on the set because the walls were made of 2X4s and plywood, but on the inside of this fake wall, it looked like a wall in a Georgetown townhouse. With this setup, they could just pick up a wall of the house and move it if they needed more room for the camera crew. When they needed to shoot from the other direction, they simply put the wall back in place.

So, the bottom line is, I still haven't seen anything definitive on where they shot the interior of the plane. They may have used the plane itself or they may have used a set. I don't know. Until we get the answer from someone that was there and knows for sure, then it is all conjecture.

[Bufflehead Jones]

Well, yes, they are extremely good at what they do. A small set with a couple of seats and a couple of windows would be no problem for them. As I said, I don't know if they shot it inside the plane or not. I just haven't seen anything yet, that I would consider conclusive one way or the other.

As another example of their workmanship. I was in the porno theater where the Supreme Court Justice was murdered in the Pelican Brief, and it was a set. I could not believe the realism while standing in the set. The seats were worn and frayed from the thousands of people that had sat in them. The carpet was worn and faded and had brown chewing gum stains in it. The exit sign was old and dirty and cracked. It really looked like a dump of a theater. In reality, it was a set and the exterior of it was just 2X4s and plywood. In case you were wondering, there was a Woody Woodpecker cartoon playing instead of a real porno movie while they filmed the scene.

Unless someone involved in the production says so one way or the other, we still won't know for sure.

[Sergei]

MK, is in the film business. I think he would know whether camera's and other apparatus required for the shoot would fit in the cabin. Maybe MK can make a statement.

But there has been extensive research and write-ups on film locations, and sequence of shots. If you go here:
http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/index.php

You will read an exhaustive article on the "Making of Raiders". I think it was written by our own IndyFrench!!! Read it all the way through. The article goes through specific dates, specific locaitons, all the Elstree studio rooms used and by date, on location filming.

The bibliography is also published here:
http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/ ... graphy.php

Listed on that page are all the references used to produce the article.

MK or French, care to chime in?

-Sergei

[Kaleponi Craig]

I don't see why Indy wouldn't be wearing a gray fedora in the plane, as the other time he was dressed in a dark suit in ROTLA, at the end of the movie, he was unmistakenly wearing a gray hat. I'm sure he was very fashion aware, as most men were in the 1930s, and he wouldn't wear a brown hat with a blue or gray suit.

[Bufflehead Jones]

We were talking about the color of the hat. Someone said that was the true color of the hat because of the natural light coming in the window. I simply said that we can't assume that is true because of the space limitation, they may have wanted to shoot that scene on a small set. I didn't say that I thought it was shot on a set, I just said it was a possibility.

I then received a curt response saying it was not shot on a set, it was shot on the plane. I just asked, how did he know that.

Quite frankly, a history of the plane, a bibliography, a bunch of online articles and even MK's pictures haven't shown me squat. None of that has said how the scene was shot.

I believe that the scene was shot on the plane. But, none of us have any proof of that and there is a possibility that it was done on a set. I just tried to point out that if they made a set, we probably wouldn't even be able to tell it was a set.

If someone comes up with a definitive word about how they filmed that scene, from someone that was there, I'd like to hear it. Otherwise, you don't really have to try to prove anything to me. I find the argument about Ford's hat being grey or brown to be more interesting than how they filmed the interior shots of the plane.

[Sergei]

... and I agree. If anyone... anyone... can please come forward and provide the person that this aforementioned article that the "clipper scene" was shot in a studio, please provide documentation. Only from a historical perspective, it would be appreciated given the research as noted in the bibliography. Diggin for the truth...

Also, speaking about the Raider's costume designer, Debroah Noodlman-Landis, those were Red Wings not Alden 405's that Harrison was wearing. This was from a recent interivew just a couple of years ago where she insisted that Harrison was wearing Redwings to a staff member here. She was the production person on site - "she was there", therefore you should not be wearing 405's but Redwings, using the applied logic from the above post. Wink - we know Debroah was soooo wrong and she, was there.

[Canyon]

Kaleponi,

I've got some screenshots for you.

http://www.theindyexperience.com/screen ... en/255.jpg
http://www.theindyexperience.com/screen ... en/257.jpg
http://www.theindyexperience.com/screen ... en/258.jpg

[J_Weaver]

I really can't see what all the debate is about. To my eyes it looks pretty clear that its a gray hat and a navy suit. I just don't think that Indy would be wearing a brown hat with a navy suit.