Put your BUTT forward?

Shawnkara · Post by **Shawnkara** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:37 pm

I was looking at the sowrds of honor Webly holster a few posts down. The description says "butt forward". Doesn't that mean the butt of the gun faces FORWARD? It looks like a standard right hand draw holster to me.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:51 pm

I think they may be talking about how the holster sits on the belt.
I saw a few pics here, that has the holster slanted forward, where it would almost have the pistol worn upside down, with the BUTT end facing forward.
'Blues

Actually, here are the pics.

viewtopic.php?t=9140

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:17 pm

And if you happen to dislike the tilted version you can always move the holder to an upright position.
Like this:

Regards,
Swindiana

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:50 am

Butt forward was a favorite carry position for many MANY years. It was a a standard carry for horse soldiers, as the real 'killing' arm was the one that could swing a sword...the revolver was considered a secondary weapon, and therefore was carried on the sword side, but in a butt forward position for ease of grab by the strong hand should the sword be lost, or weak hand in a cross draw.

This carried right on into the 20th century and was a standard practice by law enforcement, as patrol officers found it easier to pull their weaspons out of a butt forward carry when sitting in a car. This was continued right on up into the late 60's, when it was abandoned for the standard carry, as it was determined that the butt forward carry also offered an easier target for a felon to reach out and grab an officer's weapon from his holster should a conflict occur.

Most old flap holsters were originally made to be worn in butt forward condition, with the exception of those on a swivel worn by motorcycle cops.

More than you probably cared to know.....

Regards. Michaelson

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:57 am

Well, you'd know by now that at least I love that kind of stuff.
And tell it too, when I get a chance.

High regards,
Swindiana

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:41 am

Ah, an apprentice 'Knower of Things', eh? Very good. (grins) Regards. Michaelson

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:36 pm

It's that kind of info that makes me hang around here. That and the leftovers in the dumpster.

Good stuff, Michaelson!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:47 pm

There were leftovers? Dang, missed out again...

Regards. Michaelson

jack · Post by **jack** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:10 pm

Michaelson wrote:Butt forward was a favorite carry position for many MANY years. It was a a standard carry for horse soldiers, as the real 'killing' arm was the one that could swing a sword...the revolver was considered a secondary weapon, and therefore was carried on the sword side, but in a butt forward position for ease of grab by the strong hand should the sword be lost, or weak hand in a cross draw.

This carried right on into the 20th century and was a standard practice by law enforcement, as patrol officers found it easier to pull their weaspons out of a butt forward carry when sitting in a car. This was continued right on up into the late 60's, when it was abandoned for the standard carry, as it was determined that the butt forward carry also offered an easier target for a felon to reach out and grab an officer's weapon from his holster should a conflict occur.

Most old flap holsters were originally made to be worn in butt forward condition, with the exception of those on a swivel worn by motorcycle cops.

More than you probably cared to know.....

Regards. Michaelson

Swords as a primary weapon

, thats hollywood for you

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:22 pm

No. That's history for you. Regards. Michaelson

jack · Post by **jack** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:36 pm

Michaelson wrote:No. That's history for you. Regards. Michaelson

Oh yeah, most troops used there swords as a last resort, using up there revolver until ammunition was dry THEN onto the sword, this is very well documented about the american civil war

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:46 pm

Sometime before that, though, it was sort of cumbersome to use the powderhorn to reload your flintlock.

jack · Post by **jack** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:59 pm

They carried more than one revolver and usually a sharps breech loading carbine.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:10 pm

jack wrote:
Michaelson wrote:No. That's history for you. Regards. Michaelson

Oh yeah, most troops used there swords as a last resort, using up there revolver until ammunition was dry THEN onto the sword, this is very well documented about the american civil war

Not sure what documents you've read, Jack, but the period training manuals I've read state the exact opposite, especially during the Civil War. Revolvers during that period were all cap and ball, and essentially unreliable, unless they were LeMatts, like the Confederates carried....9 shot 36 caliber with a 16 ga. single shot shotgun in one package, raising their ratio of fire to misfired rounds with that monster. Otherwise, no self respecting horse soldier considered anything less than a sword to be their primary weapon. That's another reason why it was considered the ultimate proof of surrender when an officer surrendered his sword to the opposing and winning side. They didn't surrender their revolver, but their primary weapon. The armies of both sides were still in the practice of European battleline placement, and close contact fighting was still the common practice, until just after the Battle of Chattanooga when trench warfare was 'invented'. Long distance 'killing' was just being developed at that time, so the sword was the weapon of choice at that time. It was considered an honorable weapon.
By the 1870's they had field issue swords, being the primary weapon, and the officer dress sword...usually for dress and presentation, but occasionally used as primary field weapon. They also never issued more than 18 rounds per revolver per horse soldier, as it even fell to being considered the last in the line of attack field piece, sword being first, then the rifle/carbine. It wasn't until the Smith and Wesson Scolfield topbreak .44 revolver was developed by the U.S. Cavalry officer Scolfield that the revolver took a higher stand in the ranking where a horseman could load and unload his topbreak revolver using one hand, the other holding his reins.
Please provide the source of your documents, Jack. I'd be interested in reading those. Published opposing views are always interesting to compare with the manuals. Mine are the U. S. Army Field manuals, 1875/1879. I also live in Tennessee, where many of the big Civil War battles took place (there have even been minie ball bullets (fired, unfired and dropped) found on our property, so action took place right in our backyard during the period. I have 5 minie balls sitting on my shelf, as well as a ball from a cannister round. Nasty stuff...) and the documentation of the CSA which include published histories as well as private soldier journals I've read here say the same thing.

Regards! Michaelson

(Help me down off my lecture stand, if you would. My knees are getting old.

)

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:15 am

Michaelson wrote:Ah, an apprentice 'Knower of Things', eh? Very good. (grins) Regards. Michaelson

Or rather "Displayer of red herrings", perhaps?

I like your phrase though!

Regards,
Swindiana