The taper issue - Obvious observation

IndyFrench · Post by **IndyFrench** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:53 pm

Hey all,

Over the years, regardless of how well-made the fedoras available have been, the dreaded fear of crown taper is still alive and well. I was thinking the other day about this as I looked at my pristine, new Cairo AB and thought, "Man, I hope this hat never tapers."

Well, watched Raiders the other day for kicks - and realized that with the exception of ONE scene in the ENTIRE SERIES, Indy's hat is never in the rain EVER. Sure, he gets dunked in every film, but it is clear those hats turn into bonnets and aren't used again. Besides, few of us plan to jump into rivers in our hats anyway.

So, knowing that - with the exception of a little rain in Castle Brunwald, Indy's hat is usually in "dry" environments, hence it wouldn't taper like ours do in everyday lives of rain and snow. I've never heard of Egyptian sand or some Indian jungle sunshine tapering a fedora, so I guess that's that.

Mike

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:00 pm

What about sweltering Rainforests, like in the beginning of Raiders??
That must be like a steam bath. Would high humidity cause a hat to taper??
'Blues

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:14 pm

The only really wide crowned shots I think that are in the films is of course the Cairo scene in ROTLA and the publicity shot from the Hawaii shoot in Raiders that was used for Amsel's first release poster art. The rest of the hats in the series seem to be all different shapes and sizes depending on the scene your watching. Lots of tapered lids in TOD and that was a pretty dry enviroment being inside the temple mostly, but there was some jounery through the jungle there as well. I suppose if you abuse your hat enough or have it in some harsh enviroments it may taper or shrink or worse... and that may not be a bad thing.

Brett

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:23 pm

I was thinking about that too. In Raiders, he spent lots of time in the desert, with no rain, and no humidity, the two culprits to hat taper. The jungle scene in Raiders was shot last, wasn't it, in Hawai, and then only a small part of it. The rest was at Elmstreet. Pretty dry environment in most of the film, and I think it had something to do with it. Fedora

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:45 pm

Lots of tapered lids in TOD and that was a pretty dry enviroment being inside the temple mostly, but there was some jounery through the jungle there as well.

Yeah, but if you played the Emperor's tomb, you'll notice that it leaves off like a week or two before TOD picks up, so by the time Indy met willy, he hadn't gotten his hat re-blocked since before his last adventure started. :junior: -IJ

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:52 pm

Awwww I have played that and your right IJ... I would have some nasty taper goin' on since I always seem to fall in the water in that game...

Brett

Tristan · Post by **Tristan** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:01 pm

The studio's name is Elstree not elmstreet. Star Wars was shot there too.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:52 am

The studio's name is Elstree not elmstreet

Guess I got it mixed up with Nightmare on Elm Street.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:42 am

IndyFrench wrote:Sure, he gets dunked in every film, but it is clear those hats turn into bonnets and aren't used again.

I was wondering about this myself! I kept watching the scenes in Raiders where Indy is escaping the Hovitos onto Jack's plane. Once he dives in the water, well ... you put it the best way, the hat turns into a bonnet. I was like: "Is this what the HJ's of the day (80's) did when they got stinking wet?" I was hoping someone could shed some light on this, because it doesn't happen to Indy's hat when he gets it that wet in the white water rafting scenes of Temple.

IndyFrench wrote:Besides, few of us plan to jump into rivers in our hats anyway.

Dude, I've done some pretty crazy things in a fedora before. Don't put this past me.

I don't seem to remember you being a site admin. Is this a new development, or just something I happened to miss for all this time?

Regards,

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:23 am

Isn't intense heat a cause of taper as well? There are stories of folks leaving their hats in cars in direct sunlight and their hats tapered. Surely desert heat can wreak havoc on a modern felt? Not to mention hot studio lights.

Post by **Ken** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:21 am

Well I am not so interested in a hat this IS screen accurate - I would rather have a hat that LOOKS screen accurate. So we know why Indy's hat doesn't taper, but I would be more interested if there was a way of making a fedora which didnt taper - some kind of wite frame or something in the crown... I don't know.

Ken

Adventure Lad · Post by **Adventure Lad** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:29 am

Excuse my ignorance here but on avergae how long does a good quality hat last before it begins to taper? I wouldve thought it was an inevitablity, after all, all clothes start to look worn after a while, depending on what you put them through.

Adventure Lad

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:29 pm

Indiana Ken wrote:Well I am not so interested in a hat this IS screen accurate - I would rather have a hat that LOOKS screen accurate. So we know why Indy's hat doesn't taper, but I would be more interested if there was a way of making a fedora which didnt taper - some kind of wite frame or something in the crown... I don't know.

Ken

So, we are all looking for hats that don't taper. I think it's possible to solve the problem in the material itself. However, a hat that loses its shape is not an uncommon thing. Men would have their hats reblocked at the same time they took their suits to the cleaners.

I guess what I am trying to say is just because you have a hat that is losing it's shape it doesn't mean you have a bad hat. My Merc. Indy has started to taper along the back side. But the material is some of the best in the world.

Just my thoughts,
Pyro.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:51 pm

I think that even high quality felt will taper. You have to look at it from the point of view, that the blocking process, stretches out the top part of the cone. The original hat shape is a cone, and all that you have done is stretched it out. So, what keeps it stretched out? Or perhaps, the question should be, why does it not revert to the cone as soon as you pull it off the block? If the hat is completely dry when it comes off the block, the nature of felt makes it hold the blocked shape...........until it gets steamed, or wet. The moisture, and heat combined with the moisture, relaxes the felt. As it starts to dry, it shrinks, it tapers. I have just bought a bunch of vintage blocks from ebay, and all came from a dry cleaning shop up north. Even the new vintage hats back then tapered and shrunk. Reblocking has been around as long as hat making has been around. The taper factor is not anything new.

We have heard from several members, that their vintage hats will not taper. And, I must say, that one of my hats came from vintage stock, from Charlie, and it has tapered only an almost indiscernable amount since last summer. So, was the felt made back then, so much better when it comes to the taper factor? I do not think so. I think the vintage felt tapers less only because it is old felt. Felt, is a living material, or so one of my hat books tells me. It reacts to the environment. Once felt gets really old, the life is gone out of it. Hence, it reacts less to environmental influences. It is dead, and to us, nothing could be better. I think this is the reason. Fedora

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:41 pm

Well if Indy were a real person and lived those adventures I'm sure all of his hats would be beyond tapered or worse. He would spend all of his fortune and glory on numerous reblocks and cleanings

I would assume that any of the hats that were used in the films would look nothing like they did on screen if we were to see them now after all these years. Brett

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:54 pm

Here's a crazy Idea. I got this hat a couple of months ago. http://www.villagehatshop.com/product1830.html I turned it and it wanted to keep it's old bashes, so I spred a lot of hot glue inside to fix the front bashes right where I wanted them and in the shape I wanted them, permanently. I used hot glue to give it a very tight and permanent front pinch, and used some to give the crown some back tilt in back. I don't wear hats in the rain and it's not humid here, so my hats don't taper. Once it was shaped, I could have covered the entire inside section by secton. Maybe someone would like to take a junk hat, spread some hot glue around the entire inside and leave it outdoors for a couple months, and see if it tapers? Hot glue can't shrink, it could buckle, but if it was just thick enough..??? ( A couple days later, I sold the hat right off my head to a guy who liked it, hot glue and all.)

Luisiana Jones · Post by **Luisiana Jones** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:30 am

so, if you send your hat to reblock, the taper will disappear??

Shawnkara · Post by **Shawnkara** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:51 am

ALL hats will taper. That is why reblocking has been a service offered at dry cleaners, hat shops and tailors for as long as hats have been around. I'm sure Indy has his hat reblocked often, considering what he did to it. It's just not something that would interesting to show on screen: "Indiana Jones and the Running of the Errands". When he came out of that river in Raiders it was the scarecrow's hat from Wizard of Oz. I doubt it magically sprang back to what it was in the Raven sequence. I'm sure somewhere there was a hatter or tailor holding a brown felt rag in his hand, looking at Indy in dismay and saying, "What the H*ll have you done to this poor thing now?". I have one fedora that has not tapered, my PB. And I'm confident it won't. I soaked it once in the tub until it literally started to spread out into a flat sheet. It scared me to death! I didn't mean to soak it that long and was sure I'd never get it to be a fedora again. I threw it on my head and had my wife hastily wrap tape around it to save the crown. I let dry on my head and reshaped the brim. STILL, no taper. I know the stiffness of the PB usually turns people off but if what you REALLY want is a hat you torture it's your best bet.
I also have been pondering an idea. Someone mentioned wire. My idea is a thin aluminum ring (picture a coffee can with no lid or bottm). You could probably make this yourself. Menard's sells long aluminum sheets about 5" wide in various gauges. It's nearly weightless, easy to bend and can even be cut with scissors. It would seat in the sweatband and hide under the liner. You could make it to extend as high into the crown as you like. You could even easily drill holes for ventillation and to even further reduce the weight. It's soft, too so you could even form it to fit your front bash. Just a crazy idea. I've got a million of them

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:18 pm

ClintonHammond wrote:Can someone post a PIC of what this 'taper' looks like?

This is an exaggerated example but it gets the point across.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:33 pm

Here's an example of "Tri-Motor scene" taper:

Here's the same lid after a reblock:

IndianaGuybrush · Post by **IndianaGuybrush** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:27 pm

Taper is the hat coming to a point eg: _/\_ rather than _| |_

The raiders indy hat is supposed to have straight sides, all the way up, with no taper.

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:37 pm

Clinton asked:

Can someone post a PIC of what this 'taper' looks like?

TAPER:

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:34 pm

Anyway, I just put it in the post.

Hey, that's good to hear, Nick. Hope you're cooler with it all this time.
I think down the track I'd get a block made as well- possibly from Fedora's crowd if they can ship one to Australia. Getting into blocking my own hat sounds like something I might do later on.

I was at a boat building factory the other day- they have this machine that can produce fibreglass moulds very quickly from CAD drawings. It was funny that the first thing that came to mind was cadding up a drawing of an Indy block and having one made.

IndianaGuybrush · Post by **IndianaGuybrush** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:04 pm

And you didn't?!?!?!

How about a CAD Golden Idol

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:10 pm

I guess one could make a reasonably accurate 3D model of the Raiders fedora in CAD. I don't see why not- you can just trace over screen shots from front and back, etc. I don't know anything about blocking yet though!

I think with hats like the wonderful Adventurebilt on the market that I'd be wasting my time, but it's possible.

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:13 pm

Hemingway Jones wrote:Clinton asked:
Can someone post a PIC of what this 'taper' looks like?
TAPER:

Dude, you are SOOOOO lucky I didn't have a mouth full of soda when I saw that.....

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:34 pm

Pyroxene wrote:
ClintonHammond wrote:Can someone post a PIC of what this 'taper' looks like?
This is an exaggerated example but it gets the point across.

That's what my old Keppler looked like.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:41 am

This hat wasn't tall enough to take a top center dent. http://www.villagehatshop.com/product1830.html (Even though the crown is 5 and 3/4 inches unbashed, and it was a 7 1/4 inch hat on a 7 1/8 head, with a folded sweat, it has too much taper.) ( Telescope crowns can be TRICKY!) It remained a telescope crown with a glue-fixed center top bash in the very back. No one should buy it looking for an accurate Raiders hat. However... the ribbon was the best ribbon I ever saw... very thin, exactly 1 and 1/2 inches tall. I might get another-just for the ribbon. The felt was nice- a uniqe color. Much darker than this pic. ....Lots of headroom with a telescope.. getting into your car and such. What's this have to do with taper? Nothin- just a heads-up to people who saw the link to this hat earlier in this thread.

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:00 am

Minnesota wrote:

Hemingway Jones wrote:
Clinton asked:
Quote:
Can someone post a PIC of what this 'taper' looks like?

TAPER:

Dude, you are SOOOOO lucky I didn't have a mouth full of soda when I saw that.....

I'd hate to have you short out your keyboard! I am just glad that someone finally noticed that! I think it gets the "point" acrossed?

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:29 am

Hemingway Jones wrote:TAPER:

I am just glad that someone finally noticed that! I think it gets the "point" acrossed?

'Point' well taken!
That was too funny!!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:48 am

He wears hats from France.

bink

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:11 pm

BINK! This time I DID have a mouth full of soda when I just read the "France" remark. Thanks!

Beldar would be proud of you...

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:40 pm

Minnesota Jones wrote:BINK! This time I DID have a mouth full of soda when I just read the "France" remark. Thanks!

Beldar would be proud of you...

My work here is done.

I like to imagine what Beldar would look like with a porkpie hat resting on top of that point!

bink

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:48 pm

A Fez might be perfect for him.

The taper issue - Obvious observation

The taper issue - Obvious observation

Re: The taper issue - Obvious observation