They claim "exact hat", but we know better...

[Glurrk]

http://store.yahoo.com/herrington-catalog/ls414.html

They try... Man, oh how they try!

[Andiana]

That looks just like the Disney Feds......haha..I know those well....

It's a good hat, just not very accurate....

[Glurrk]

Yes, I imagine the tiny metal "Indiana Jones" pin on the ribbon is a dead giveaway, along with the too-good-to-be-true price!

[Flattery]

http://store.yahoo.com/herrington-catalog/ls414.html

They try... Man, oh how they try! icon_wink.gif

[Strider]

That's how it is and how it will always be. People will always try and sell hats that are "accurate", or "the exact same thing as Ford wore", and people will continue to buy them. People who don't know about this site. So, let's just look at it and laugh

Regards,
Strider

[McFly]

What's nice to point out however, is that at least they changed the ribbon to black, or so it looks. I guess it's 75% screen accurate to Temple of Doom... only that pin and the teardrop crown really kill it. The fact that it's made with wool doesn't neccesarily take points from "screen accuracy," because you can't tell that on screen, but definately from authenticity. They're close... but no cigar. Definately no cigar.

In Christ,
Shane

EDIT: woohoo! Prof. of Archaeology!

[Andiana]

Ah man Mcfly, you beat me in posts already...I still got 150 to go...
If only I wasn't on vacation for 2 weeks.....nah, Florida's great!
(Which er reminds me...I need to get them pics up....)


I took my old Disney Fed and compared it to that pic, and it's exactly the same! The stuntmen that play Indy in the Stunt Show wear this very same hat!

I wonder if we can teach the world of screen-acurate gear...

[Strider]

There are a lot of people that screen accuracy doesn't matter to. That's really who these hats are made for. For the average person who just wants a hat that looks at least somewhat like the hats used in the films, those kind of hats will suffice. Not everyone is willing to jump into this hobby such as we have.

It's not as if the vendors of Disney feds and the like are trying to run some scam down on us more experienced hat wearers, but more, trying to provide the general populace at large with a hat that they can wear and have fun with.

I know a friend who bought a Disney fed for the reasons of it being much cheaper than Kepplers, Adventurebilts or Peters Bros., and he didn't really care too much about "screen accuracy". The hat reminded him enough of an Indy hat for him to be happy, and he also believed that the general looking populace that saw him in it would think it looks enough like an Indy hat to be an Indy hat. That's really who these things are made for. Oh, and kids also. Sometimes they are used for costumes, or just for fun. Someone may not want to spend the 235$ some of us have comitted to Steve for an AB. So then, 50$ seems reasonable to those people.

To each their own, my friends. Because it isn't screen accurate doesn't mean that it isn't cool or nice to see. Because there's a teardrop bash in the crown doesn't mean we shouldn't say "cool hat!" to someone if we see them and happen to be wearing our feds, too. If they are happy with their hat, more power to them I say. We are just more into this hobby than some, and for those people not as dedicated as us, the secondary market has something for them, too.

Regards,
Strider

[Snakewhip_Sable]

It looks like it's moss green as well.

Though of course no one should be discouraged from wearing any kind of fedora, they're certainly misleading people.

[Renderking Fisk]

I'm thinking of sending out a letter to these people. I think they're morally wrong and deceptive in their use of language: "Wear the Exact Same Hat Worn by Harrison Ford, as He Searched for The Ark of the Covenant in Raiders of the Lost Ark!"

I think they're also decieving people by altering that photograph of Ford.

customerservice@herringtoncatalog.com

Special Request: Stop lying and misleading potential customers.

First, I’m troubled by your ad.
http://store.yahoo.com/herrington-catalog/ls414.html

As a collector of fedoras and a fan of the Indiana Jones motion pictures, I’m offended that you would advertise this product as “the Exact Same Hat Worn by Harrison Ford, as He Searched for The Ark of the Covenant in Raiders of the Lost Ark!” It is not. This product you advertise in your on-line catalog is not shaped the same way and it is not made of the same material (the original was made out of fur-felt, this product is wool felt.) It’s a fedora, but it is not the “Exact” same hat.

Second, I’m also aware that someone has alterned the photograph of Harrison Ford to make the fedora he’s wearing look more like the product you’re selling. This is dishonnest and deceptive.

I’m requesting that you fix these problems, or I’ll be more then happy to make my readers on The Fedora Chronicles aware of your deceptive buisness practices. I will also spend a version of this letter to the legal department of LucasFilm and Paramount Pictures who hold the Copyright on the Indiana Jones franchise and Trademark.

I request you get back to me with in 7 days or make the approprate changes.

Eric Renderking Fisk
Webmaster – The Fedora Chronicles.

What do you think?

[Snakewhip_Sable]

That will put the fear of God into them for sure, but it might have bad repercussions for honest hatters (COW's favourite vendors!), forcing them to be more creative with their own products and advertising so the Lucasfilm legal department doesn't smite them all.

[McFly]

It might do good to change this:
"Special Request: Stop lying and misleading potential customers."

Just water it down a little bit, so that you don't scare them off right away or upset them so that they ignore your request. You want to get your point across, but do it in a way that's not going to tick off the so-called Vendor. But the rest of it I like... sounds very official. It's just that beginning that you might want to change, so that they're not scared off RIGHT away. lol

Just my .02

In Christ,
Shane

[Snakewhip_Sable]

Rather than threaten them, suggest they work to provide a proper Indy hat. Be more positive, but still stern. Give them options before outing them as frauds.

I dunno, maybe I'm too nice a guy that way.

[WConly]

I sent them an email when I saw this is a catalogue sent to me ...I suggested they 'tone the add down' as it was border-line fradulent. To date, they have not responded to me. I am curious -- just what is 'archeological dust or dirt'? Is it special or different from regular dust or dirt? All Regards. W>

[McFly]

I dunno, maybe I'm too nice a guy that way.

Nice guys can have pretty big effects on people...

In Christ,
Shane

[Flattery]

I dunno, maybe I'm too nice a guy that way.


Nice guys can have pretty big effects on people... icon_wink.gif

Exactly. I also suggest changing the opening line. The letter is a business letter. I really don't see anything else in your letter that may need revision. It's short, to the point, very straightforward -- be best traits to have in a complaint letter.

I'm curious as to what their response will be -- please keep us informed.

[Bufflehead Jones]

Ren,

Just two quick comments on your letter. You have, "I will spend a copy of this letter". It should read "send".

The hat pictured appears to me to be the Dorfman Pacific hat complete with it's "Indy pin". This IS the offically licensed by LucasFilm Indiana Jones fedora. I don't think that Herrington or LucasFilm is going to give much thought to you reporting Herrington's claims to LucasFilm.

[RelicHunter]

Selling the Dorfman-Pacific hat is fine, even calling them "Indiana Jones" hats is okay because they are the "official" merchandise, but saying that it's the EXACT same hat as the ones used in the movies is false advertising. But, what really makes me mad is how they altered the photo.

I applaud Renderking Fisk and anyone else who calls them on this. Let's just make it clear that they don't need to stop selling the hat or alter it in any way, but to change their deceptive advertising.

P.S. I found another typo in the letter. When you talk about altering the photo, remove the "n" in "alterned."

[Bufflehead Jones]

If I wasn't a member of COW, I would think that since it is the Officially Licensed Indiana Jones fedora, that it was the exact hat that Indiana Jones wore. I am sure that the person that wrote the one paragraph depiction of this hat to sell on-line and through catalogs, has probably never even heard of Herbert Johnson.

Ren, I only skimmed through your letter the first time. I went back and read it again and found some more typos to change before sending it, if you decide to do so.

fur felt not fur-felt, dishonest not dishonnest, more than not more then, business not buisness, copyright not Copyright, trademark not Trademark, appropriate not approprate, exact not Exact.

Normally, I don't proof read things that people write on-line, but did in this case, since it seems that you may send it to Herrington. I just was trying to help so there wouldn't be typos. Goodness knows that I don't need people correcting things that I write in an on-line forum. They could certainly keep themselves busy doing that.

[Renderking Fisk]

I toned it down, deleted the part about sending a version of the letter to LucasFilm and Paramount.

I get really REALLY mad when I see people trying to rip off fans. Really mad.

Bufflehead, I ran it through MS-Word Spell checker twice... so I caught those mistake, too.

[Bufflehead Jones]

No problem, Ren. I was just trying to help.

[Strider]

You guys are out of your minds. It's just some lousy hat made for people who don't care about hat shaping, bashes, pinches, and whatever else.

Let them eat cake! Who cares if it isn't "screen accurate"!? I've never been able to understand this high horse people get on about things not being "screen accurate". So what? If you want your gear that way, fine and dandy, it's your perogative. However, if someone else just wants to wear that hat, let them! Quit obsessing over it, for goodness sakes. Just stop caring. Let someone buy it and be happy with it. Like Adam when I gave him my old Disney fed. He was ecstatic about having it! That hat made that kid's day; man you should have seen his smile. It made his mom happy that he was happy. That's what it's all about, not any of this esoteric BS.

Did it occur to any of you letter writing fans that maybe they didn't know about this site, or the quest for gear in general? Maybe they are under the impression that since the hats they are selling are LucasFilm liscenced replicas, that they is an exact replica of the hat Ford used. If so, that's unfortunate for them, but certainly not worth the amount of outrage and effort you otherwise nice fellows are putting into it. And besides, like I said in my last post on this, some people just don't care about having the most accurate hat in the world. For that price, which is very reasonable for the average joe, that hat will make them happy. I know it made me happy when I first got my Disney fed, before I knew about anything else.

Just let it go, for crying out loud. It's not like on eBay where people list crappy looking hats and try and pawn them off as Indy fedoras when they aren't even a reasonable facsimile.

Regards,
Strider

[JAN]

I am with You on this one, Strider.

Live and let live - they are not doing anything illegal - this is a matter
of taste...

Besides they did not alter the pic of Indy - the colour is a bit wrong (more greenish) but the shape is the original.

Let it go..Indy...

Best regards

JAN

[Renderking Fisk]

You guys are out of your minds.

No, I'm out of YOUR mind. From now on, when I see someone doing something that's wrong, I'm not going ot keep quiet about it.

This company's doing TWO things that are immoral and qualifies as false advertising.

"“the Exact Same Hat Worn by Harrison Ford, as He Searched for The Ark of the Covenant in Raiders of the Lost Ark!”" What part of that do YOU not understand? They're misrepresenting the product. It's not the EXACT hat. It's an outright LIE.

They doctored that photograph... again misrepresenting that product. Another lie. False advertising is against the law where I'm from, how about you?

If someone one sold you a Rolls, and they delivered a Ford Pinto... don't tell me you wouldn't be upset.

[Andiana]

I have nothing against it not being 'screen accurate'. I've had the same exact type of hat for 7 years until I got my first 'actual' fed through the mail from a un-named member of COW (thanx you!) and I was happy with it.

It's just that as Renderking said, altering the picture and saying that it is 'exact same' is false merchandising which I think is against the law or something....(maybe I'm wrong...I'm young..)

It's not a matter of accuracy at this point, it's the fact that it is bascially false-advertising, and it's surprisng that's comin' from a professional online shop (not ebay).


BTW - Mcfly, nice new avatar, are you wearing your new Cabelas in it?

[Strider]

You're talking like it's malicious false advertising. Like they are doing it on purpose, with the expressed knowledge that their hat isn't anything close.

Like I said, maybe they are under the impression that if Lucas Film would licence the hat, then it is the closest thing to the exact hat Ford wore. I'm sure they are not saying "exact hat" trying to imply that Ford wore that very hat in any of the movies.

Besides, it's cheap. It's for people who want an Indy hat that's easy on the wallet, but don't care about excrutiating details, as us more discriminating hat wearers do. I don't think they deserve the scathing wrath you are raining down on them, Ren. No offense.

Regards,
Strider

[Neolithic]

This company's doing TWO things that are immoral and qualifies as false advertising.

Ren, I think you are taking it too far as to say it's immoral. Perhaps you should review that comment.

As Strider says- it's the 'official' Lucasfilm hat. How are they to know?
If there's anything wrong, it's that these ###### Dorfmans aren't Herbert Johnsons- and it's Lucasfilm's fault for allowing an innacurate so-called replica.
I seriously doubt they are cunning thieves out to con people. I'd change your letter to ask that they only claim it as being the 'official' Indy hat, as sadly, this is so, rather than the 'exact' hat.

[McFly]

BTW - Mcfly, nice new avatar, are you wearing your new Cabelas in it?

Yeah - that's the Cabela's. I'll get a new avatar again when my Wested gets here... *drool*



On topic - what about relating the possibility of them not knowing any better to them altering that photo? Personally, I can't see how it's edited or altered at all, but for somebody who does think it's altered, I'm sure that makes it seem more like they know it's not exact, but want to make it look like that. And all one has to do is look at a screen from Raiders to see that it's not the one used by him in "all 3 films."

In Christ,
Shane

[Strider]

The casual fan probably won't do that. Again, this is for the CASUAL, NON DISCRIMINATORY fan. Or someone who just wants a different style of fedora. The photo is taken from the photo of Ford and Connery standing next to one another. How/if it's doctored, I don't know.

Regards,
Strider

[Renderking Fisk]

You're talking like it's malicious false advertising. Like they are doing it on purpose, with the expressed knowledge that their hat isn't anything close.

I'm not saying it's LIKE malicious false advertising. I'm coming right out and saying it is malicious false advertising. How can you write something like that and use the word "Exactly" with out checking?

I don't think they deserve the scathing wrath you are raining down on them, Ren. No offense.

When I see something like this, it makes my blood boil. They're cheating young or nieve fans out of money. I don't care if it's cheap. For some people a dollar is hard to come by. Who's looking out for them? It's not a big deal right now because that person isn't you or one of us any more. But it was, or it could have been.

This is the same exact thing when some one is selling a prop on E-Bay as "One used in the movie" and it's clearly not... or the Pimp-hats that are discribed as the one worn by Harrison Ford.

[Rob]

A consumer is only being cheated if they are unhappy ith the hat.

If they are told it's the Indy hat, and it looks like the Indy hat, and they feel Indy when they wear the Indy hat, and none of their friends know the differences between Indy hats to tell them... then, ######, to them, it's the Indy hat.

So we, as a group can point with indignation and say 'rip off' or whatever based on knowledge WE have but THEY don't... so really, does the man on the street who buys this hat, at this price, give a rats? I doubt it.

Let's expend energy on real things, rather than 'saving' people who don't need saving.

[Strider]

You're talking like it's malicious false advertising. Like they are doing it on purpose, with the expressed knowledge that their hat isn't anything close.

I'm not saying it's LIKE malicious false advertising. I'm coming right out and saying it is malicious false advertising. How can you write something like that and use the word "Exactly" with out checking?

I don't think they deserve the scathing wrath you are raining down on them, Ren. No offense.

When I see something like this, it makes my blood boil. They're cheating young or nieve fans out of money. I don't care if it's cheap. For some people a dollar is hard to come by. Who's looking out for them? It's not a big deal right now because that person isn't you or one of us any more. But it was, or it could have been.

This is the same exact thing when some one is selling a prop on E-Bay as "One used in the movie" and it's clearly not... or the Pimp-hats that are discribed as the one worn by Harrison Ford.

*sigh*

Alright, I'm done. I tried.

Regards,
Strider

[Renderking Fisk]

I don't want to cheese off any more of my fellow fans. I think these people are DEAD wrong for using the word "Exactly"... but this is an issue I don't want to divide you guys.

[Neolithic]

Again, I think the whole idea of 'offical' gear is what starts this kind of mess.

Anyway- at least an Indy fan worth their salt will have watched the extra DVD interviews and heard Debrah Nadoolman tell of where they bought the original hats from.

Caveat Emptor!

[Strider]

Caveat Emptor!

Regards,
Strider

[Rob]

Guys, I think it's as simple as the following two facts:

(i) I doubt those people actually WROTE the body copy. It has been supplied, along with the products.

(ii) It's a $50 hat FFS. Let's stop applying the values of people who don't blink at spending several hundred, or more, on a hat, to this one.

[Waco]

Not to be nitpicking,
But check the typo on the second paragraph. "Alterned"
Alter it to....alter[i]

Just want to make sure you look good all around!

Again sorry to play English teacher.
[/i]

[Glurrk]

Hey guys-

I never meant for this thread to cause so much trouble. I posted it for fun, because I thought everyone here could get a chuckle out of it.

In the past, I've bashed (excuse the pun) the DPs because a mega-corporation pushes a low-grade product for the masses. Give me a vendor who cares any day. Anyway, it's an inside joke here at COW as to what the "official" hat is!

In any case, it was pointed out that someone might buy this hat simply because they cannot afford a better one. Or, they just plain like the hat! If that's the case, I certainly would not poke any fun at them for it.

PLEASE, let's not be at each other's throats for this.

[Andiana]

Yo Mods, maybe we should er..close up this thread. I'm afriad someone's gonna pull out a webley soon...

"LET THE BOY SPEAK!" -

Coming from someone who has owned the hat, I think it is a very good hat, but for even a beginning fan, it's obvious that it's not the 'actual' hat, because if it was a 'begining' fan, they'd probably search for 'Indiana Jones' through google or something and come up to this site! (Hey, I did...)

Let's all get along....

[Strider]

Let's all get along....

Regards,
Strider

[Bufflehead Jones]

148,

Why do you think this thread should be locked? I think just about everyone here is in agreement that the ad is misleading for anyone familiar with Indiana Jones' hat. But, for other folks that don't know any better, including the retailer, they are perfectly content with this desription of the "Officially Licensed Indiana Jones fedora". Since LucasFilm is the one that bestowed this title upon this particular fedora, I am afraid they would have to agree.

While people have expressed their views on this subject, I don't feel that anyone has gotten out of hand or become angry with their fellow gearheads.

[3thoubucks]

I think it's closer to the Raiders hat than you might think. I'm very intent on understanding whether the hat was open crowned, or bashes formed on the block like the Official hat. As far as I know, only these bashes formed on the block hats have the special crown shape (when the top bash is popped up) that Fedora has developed for his Adventurebuilts. --I found this today (or more accurately, UNDERSTOOD? this today.) When Forrestal pops out, you see this shot for a split second. This is before the hat was turned. (It has the same tiny flip down in the front of the brim that it had in the tarantula scene.) Look at the wierdness going on in the front bash above his right eye. That, I suspect, is a little formed on the block bash that is partially popped out.

[Shiva]

I dunno about that. The tight crease and center crease in the Raiders hat (and the Adventurebilt) are easily formed by hand and don't require a block to do. The fact that it popped out may just be that they beat up the hat a bit before that scene, plain and simple.

[Andiana]

Bufflehead -

I just thought that Strider and Mr. Renderking were er...kinda getting in a little fight an dI didn't want it to go out of hand.....um....let me improvise here...

Oh, I know - "My gun is 6 feet long!"

....hehe..old post mix up...hehe....eh...wait, what am I doing up at this hour....oh yeah, Pepsi...
GOODNIGHT!

[3thoubucks]

Indy was not in a fight or an action scene before or during the Forrestall scene. The front pinch WAS easily put in by hand, Although the Raiders HJ bashes may have been formed on the block, it was a floppy thin felt, and the tight front pinch you see above was a breeze to install. ----Does anyone know if this HJ on the Indygear fedora page is a bashes formed on the block hat that has been tight front pinched? Has anyone ever seen a bashes formed on the block POET? A bashes formed on the block hat is the norm. Open crowned hats were kind of hard to find before Gearheads started demanding them, weren't they?

[Strider]

Uh oh, 3K$ is here. Everybody run!

Regards,
Strider

[Rob]

I'll say it again... it's a $50 hat, people... let's not be getting too uptight about it...

[MoreLikeMarcus]

Well, yupp, it's a 50 bucks hat... but the guys' marketing sounds like it's the penultimate Indy hat. (THE EXACT SAME )
So, I feel, that those two details may be slightly out of sync. While this doesn't cause too much of an emotional stir for me, I think it is desireable for the company to correct it.
How to get them to do that? I guess they wouldn't care all that much for a single letter, but if there is a sufficient number of letters, they might consider the change. So, I think I am going to drop them a polite e-mail just saying that the labelling doesn't quite fit the contents

Well, that's just my 2 cents on this!

Cheers
MLM

[Renderking Fisk]

I’m selling a Ford 1984 Station wagon as a car that’s EXACTLY like the one Micheal J. Fox drove in “Back To The Future”… it’s not my fault that the buyer doesn’t know the diffrence or the real thing. How is THAT any different they what they’re doing?

Nope, they’re TOTALLY in the wrong for use of the word “EXACTLY”…

[manwithhat]

I’ve owned and worn a DP hat for many years, and it’s a decent hat for the money. I don’t feel worried about wearing it in some locations and situations that would have me stapling a more expensive hat to my head.
I can’t deny that in the advertisement they push the “exact hat” business a bit hard. As mentioned before, they probably took the ad copy straight out of the Harrington catalog.