Backing the "shrinkage" theory!

Modern Jones · Post by **Modern Jones** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:55 pm

Get your dirty Seinfeld minds out of the gutter!

The shrinkage I'm refering to is the "Akubra Anomoly". A while back Renderking said that his Akubra shrank from extreme cold. There was a lot of disbelief.

Well, I'm backing my man up!!!

I recently had this happen while repainting my computer room to become my 2 year olds bedroom. Over the period of 3 days of painting and drying, I had left the windows open to let the fumes out. As some of you have experienced, you have absolutley no place to put your stuff while redoing a room!!!

I left some of my hats on top of a tall bookcase in safety. After the room was done, I moved things back into the room. I was trying on my fedoras, when I realized my Akubra had become a very snug fit!!!

This hat was a 7 3/8 when I ordered it. It always fit too loosely and required a lot foam. Now I don't need the foam at all! I have tried the lamp trick (many times, without success). All I succeded in doing is shrinking the felt and creating some TOD taper (which it has become my TOD fedora).

After the 3 day extreme cold, the sweatband and the felt have shrunk in proportion! I back up RK completely!!!

Any comments, suggestions or theories are encouraged.

Skip

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:32 pm

Wow! I am shocked to read that. I missed the earlier discussion about the shrinkage. It must have been really cold to do that!

I recently camped outdoors in New Mexico for just under a week. The temperature in the evenings dropped to freezing. I did not notice any shrinkage to my Akubra.

Then again, maybe the cold shrunk my head along w/the hat!

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:35 pm

Shrinkage, the one true enemy to any modern felt hat wearer.

This seams to be the only thing that stands between happiness and a lifetime of reblocking or replacing or stretching sweatbands. I still wonder what they did so well back in the old days that keeps those vintage hats from taperng regardless of rain snow or sun.

.
The leather bands are a different story and always shrink or stretch regardless of vintage or modern, though the felt I have from back then doesn't seam to have any issues like we see with modern Akubra, Stetson, biltmore, resistol, Bailey, Gary White, GH, Optimo or all other modern hats.

I'm still awaiting the outcome with the Adventure builts and the new pre-blocked Optimos.

Until then back to the hatter to get the felt stretched and the leather band too.

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:45 pm

I still wonder what they did so well back in the old days that keeps those vintage hats from taperng regardless of rain snow or sun.

Find this out and you will be rich

It is amazing that with all the technology available, modern hatters cannot (or will not) divulge a solution.

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:01 pm

I opened this thread thinking I was going to read about men and swimming pools.

IJ

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:12 pm

I don't understand why the vintage felt does not shink like the new stuff. One thing that I have noticed is that much of the vinage felt seems to be a looser felt. One would think this would shrink faster, but this is not the case at all. I have a few vintage hats that just refuse to taper. Sometimes it seems like the denser felt shrinks more readily. Weird. Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:10 am

Could it be the mercury factor?

bink

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:11 am

Thanks, Skip.

One of my orginal observations is that the felt doesn’t just “Shrink”, but it puffs a it in all directions when exposed to the cold. This happened to my Regular Akubra Federation and now the felt has a “Vintage” quality to it… holding its shape while at the same time it’s very floppy.

It’s as if the felt “Breathes out” after holding it all the time since it was ironed during the blocking and bashing process.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:53 pm

I think it's oil. I rebloked my super floppy but thick Tonak. I think it has the loose quality Fedora is talking about. I heated a pot of water to 180 degrees and put the hat in for one minute. When I went to pour the water out I noticed puddles of clear oil on the surface. I have pics from the 30's of a hat factory. In one a worker is hand blotting oil onto the outside of a hat.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:45 pm

Could it be the mercury factor?

You may be on to something. I think it is a possibility, and may have been the reason the hatters did not want to change, but were pushed into it by the Union. Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:47 pm

I think it's oil

I wish it were that. That would be easy to do. The oil was traditionally used to make an inferior felt look better after it was finished, as well as the colored powder. It is only a topical application and did not soak into the felt deep enough to make a difference. Fedora

Modern Jones · Post by **Modern Jones** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:08 pm

Great observations and theories. It really is amazing the difference in felts.

It may be the hair involved in the felt making process too. One thing is for certain ... "heat expands and cold contracts". But if the felt was compressed so densely by whatever the process, than it has no room to shrink/taper.

Has anyone ever had a Bulletproof PB shrink/taper/etc.? Is it the stiffener that makes those hats so ... bulletproof!? Or is the cowboy heritage of feltmaking a slightly differnet process?

Skip

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:22 pm

I can say the PB hasn't tapered, that could be because of the shellack they use to make the cowboy hat stiff. They make those hats on a press with tremendous pressure and steam, more so than used with dress felts.

mercury was used as a binder and cleaned the felt so it binds better... I don't think it is a reason for less taper, though who knows.

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:02 pm

PB's do have a fade problem.
For coloring it really depends on what they use to color the hats and how they are colored. Some companies still apply the color to the fur before the felt is made, some try to soak it in after.

I have brown vintage hats (the hats I wear the most) that have taken the sun for years without notice of fade, same color inside and out. I have Akubras PB's and other modern hats that turned tan after a year.

As for the looser factor... Do you mean soft? please define what you are calling loose. Most of the vintage hats I have are dense and feel tough. I have some that are super soft, though they still are tough.

bclead · Post by **bclead** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:12 pm

Melty Man wrote:
Has anyone ever had a Bulletproof PB shrink/taper/etc.?
Yeppers.

My gray Custom tapered right quick after the very first rain. It also is shedding fur and creasing a bit on the brim. I was not pleased with the gray at all as far as durability. It shrank as well, but not by much.

My brown PB Custom held up better. It tapered too, but only slightly. I shrank it a bit on purpose with The Light Bulb Trick because it was too big when I got it. It kept riding down to my ears. The brown faded in color real fast too. It looks tan now. (see avatar)

Both hats are only six months old.

Hey Melty Man:

I am kinda new at this. What exactly is the "Light Bulb Trick"?

........Bruce

Post by **Dalexs** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:40 pm

Well, technically it's called the Lamp Shade Trick.

1) Wet just the leather sweat band of your hat (if its too big.)
2) Place hat on top of a lampshade. Every few minutes take hat off lampshade and check fit.
3) When fit is good, leave on head (not lampshade.)

The heat of the lamp fast dries the leather sweat which tends ot shrink it.
You need to be careful because you can over-shrink it very easily.

I've used it on a few of my hats to get a perfect fit.

Dalexs

bclead · Post by **bclead** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:53 pm

Dalexs wrote:Well, technically it's called the Lamp Shade Trick.

1) Wet just the leather sweat band of your hat (if its too big.)
2) Place hat on top of a lampshade. Every few minutes take hat off lampshade and check fit.
3) When fit is good, leave on head (not lampshade.)

The heat of the lamp fast dries the leather sweat which tends ot shrink it.
You need to be careful because you can over-shrink it very easily.

I've used it on a few of my hats to get a perfect fit.

Dalexs

Thanks Dalexs.........see you on January 8!!!

........Bruce

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:14 am

As for the looser factor... Do you mean soft? please define what you are calling loose. Most of the vintage hats I have are dense and feel tough. I have some that are super soft, though they still are tough.

It is hard for me to describe Matt. It is just a characteristic of the felt that I cannot quite put into words. The loose terminology sort of describes it, if you don't confuse it with a body that has not been felted enough. The sort of felt that I am referring to can be stretched out really easily when reblocking, either with steam or water, but holds the shape the best when compared with modern felt. Sometimes a real dense modern felt body, once blocked wants to shrink back up, regardless of any "setting technique" used in the process. ANd this dense modern felt does not stretch as readily in the block procedure. Weird. Fedora

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:35 pm

I gotcha. I used to think that vintage felt didn't shrink because they've been cured with 50 years of or more of aging, though that theory went out the window when I saw how 1930's hats that were well worn and obviously beat up held their untapered looks.

Something settled the felt ragardless of density. Searching for that lost method is like searching for the Lost Ark.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:41 pm

I still think it has something to do with the way the body was felted. Perhaps they run it through the rollers more times with the old felt? Who knows, but it is a fact that the old felt did not shrink and taper like modern felt. Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:17 am

This post reveals Fedora's info sources and has a picture of oil application. http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic ... hlight=oil I'd believe the 1919 book, but not the hatters especially. Steve, if someone told you that oil didn't penetrate, I'd like to know if that guy ever worked in a serious factory, like in the oil application picture, or if he was a small independent who kind of picked things up. Was he even started when oil application was still going on by big producers? ..... I think I heard about 45 years ago that they used whale oil and they had to stop... that's probably false memory...

In 180 degree water, a bunch of oil came out of my Tonak, none that I noticed came out of my Miller.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:57 am

Really the only info that I have documented that talking about the oil is from the Scientific Hatmaking written my a master hatter in 1919. Here is what he says.

"In working cheap coarse hats or hats that show mottled and streaky color, powders serve a purpose at this stage. With fine hats, finishing powders are not used. A grease pad or lure, one for each color powder, will also be required. These should be loaded with finisher's grease-coconut oil being very satisfactory-by spreading it evenly over the entire surface of one side of the pad and melting it in by applying a hot iron to the oiled side of the pad, taking care not to scorch the pad.

The powder is applied, then rub the grease pad quickly, first touching the pad to the hot iron to melt the grease. ............................As a dead finish is desired on the better grades of hats neither the grease pad nor the powders are used in finishing them"

Since my vintage hats that do not shrink easily had no finsihing powder or grease in them, I just have to assume these the grease had no effect on the shrinkage factor. Fedora