The Raiders hat was never "open crowned".

In-depth discussion of the Fedora of Indiana Jones and all other hats appearing in the Indiana Jones movies

Moderators: Indiana Jeff, Dalexs

Post Reply
User avatar
3thoubucks
Professor of Archaeology
Professor of Archaeology
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:26 am
Location: San Francisco, California, U.S.A.
Contact:

The Raiders hat was never "open crowned".

Post by 3thoubucks »

O.K., that's just my theory. I think it came off the type of block with the bashes carved in it. There's a lot of bumps and junk going on in the top bash of the Raiders hat. Specificly, a line about an inch forward of the rear end of the bash, going from side to side. It's like a little ridge with deep impressions on either side on the right side of the bash and less noticeable on the left side. I always tried to imagine this was the crown to side transition point, but it's too extreme. I think I figured it out today. I got a new BCF Tonak, a beautifull soft, dark brown with thin felt. Not too floppy. I turned it and put in the top bash and there was the Raiders line and bumps! It's bashes are formed on the block, and it looks just like this Miller. Image When you pop this top bash out, the bash transition points remain obvious and prominent. There's even like a second little dome on top of the main dome. I know that hat turning gives you irregular top bashes, and pinching them will put some lumps here and there. - but this Raiders feature is in every scene- it's deep and permanent. I admit- it's a very small detail :wink: ...And here's another theory- :P What if you wanted a tight front pinch in that Miller. You might be tempted to start it on the front edge of one of those two front bashes....... :shock: It's the perfect distance from the center. Image
Last edited by 3thoubucks on Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
Mattdeckard
Dig Leader
Dig Leader
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:52 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by Mattdeckard »

The Raiders hat was never open crowned.
Yes it was!

Now the TOD hat... that's another story.
User avatar
3thoubucks
Professor of Archaeology
Professor of Archaeology
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:26 am
Location: San Francisco, California, U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by 3thoubucks »

I'd say once you popped the "original" bashes up on the Raiders hat, the open crown would look basicly the same as Fedora's Adventurebuilts. Just a little bumpier here and there. ....Did I say "small detail"? I was wrong. ..Image I can add these features to the exterior of my open crown block (instead of making a wierd, prebashed block, and it should work if I iron them using the tip.? Here's the back of my new Tonak- Imagine a bash throgh the (turned of course :wink: ) middle of that, and one inch beyond.Image
Mola Ram
Vendor
Posts: 1306
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 11:08 am
Location: New York, NY
Contact:

Post by Mola Ram »

sorry,
But it puzzles me why in the devil you spend so much time
on something like this when you could be out side, doing something
just more productive. I like the style of the films, but im not trying
to copy every single part of his hat, finger print for finger print.
Im sorry, but this whole thing with the hat is just crazy. I personally
dont think your whole theroy about anything on the raiders hat is true.
To me the bash turn seems like a whole load of lard. If i was a costume
artist, id buy a hat, and stick it on the actors head. Sorry, all of this has
been in my mind for years. :lol: I believe it has to do with long oval sizing, to regular hat sizing. I really wear a long oval, so any hat i put on
looks raiders like, and has the swoop, taper, sweatband dent, exe.
Kindest regards,
Adam
Mola Ram
Vendor
Posts: 1306
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 11:08 am
Location: New York, NY
Contact:

Post by Mola Ram »

3thoubucks,
I know you have spent lots of time on your theories,
please dont take it personal. Its just what i think. Hey,
this is coming from someone who only works on whips at
12am to 3am uasualy :lol: Take it lightly, ok, its just after
4 years almost after listing to this i just had to tell you what i
think. Melty, Its too cold out here too. I uasuly need 4 layers just
to take a walk. :lol:
Adam
User avatar
JerseyJones
Vendor
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:02 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Post by JerseyJones »

3thou,

It was absolutely open crowned and there are lots of folks around here who can back that up with letter from Swales himself. It began life as an HJ Poet with an open crown, plain and simple.

But keep up the good theories. It's great to keep the conversations going.

Best,
Ken
Fedora
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 5:44 pm

Post by Fedora »

I won't get into the argument, except to say, the Raiders hat was turned, turned, turned. It is impossible to replicate that brim shape without the turn. Trust me. Fedora
User avatar
3thoubucks
Professor of Archaeology
Professor of Archaeology
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:26 am
Location: San Francisco, California, U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by 3thoubucks »

4 or 5 years ago I made this replica of the Raiders hat in cemet and plaster. I worked from 40 35mm pics I took off my TV. Also pics in print and on the web. So that's how long I've been keenly aware of this feature. Image Here it is naturally in my Tonak Image It's the transition point in the Tonak block's pre formed top bash. The bash is a little shorter because the Tonak has a lot of taper.............Ford didn't sign a release that he would only wear the hat Swales personally sold him...There was another hat bought by Nadoolman wasn't there? Plus 40 more hats bought from HJ for the production. He could be wearing one of those. Someone could have been sent to buy a couple more brown HJ 7 1/4's without telling anyone at the shop what they were for............................................................................................................Melty Man and Molorom- I'll respond to your insolence because thankfully, you saved this post from oblivion....5 years ago I would have "gone outside" myself, and done some "extreme" mountain bike down hilling or something, but now I'm 51. I want to do something productive before I die. I wanted to be an "Artist" when I grew up. I can set up an easel anywhere, and oil paint you the landscape, no problem. It requires acute observation. It's what I've trained myself to do. My latest theory may be bogus, but it makes sense to me at this time.
Scandinavia Jones
Museum Curator
Museum Curator
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 4:54 pm
Location: East of Swindiana

Post by Scandinavia Jones »

$3K -

You are indeed one of the more knowledgeable persons around here regarding the anathomy of the Raiders hat. Several of your theories regarding the ROTLA lid are facts in my book. This, however, I don't buy. Your proof for the IOTOC theory (that is "ixnay-on-the-open-crown-theory" :wink:) is a sculpted model you made while studying a bashed hat? That is, your sculpted model is a highly accurate design replica of the Raiders hat, therefore all Raiders hats were shaped on a block with similar, if not identical features? A misplaced deductive reasoning of sorts, IMHO.

Besides, ROTLA was just a movie in the process of being made back then. I seriously doubt that Spielberg, Nadoolman, Swales or whoever would've put that much effort in "just a hat". Lucky circumstances and a certain eye for the dramatic look gave the hat it's almost magical features we love so much.

An interesting theory, though, $3K! Keep'em coming! :)
Farnham54
Professor of Archaeology
Professor of Archaeology
Posts: 798
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Looking for clever places to re-hide Jess's TomTom

Post by Farnham54 »

I think one thing we should all try to keep in mind here is this:

The costumers for the film did not go out of their way to turn the hat. They did not go out of their way to specifically get a non-open crowned hat then rebash the heck out of it. They did not go out of their way to do a MILLION of the things in 3thou$ theory.

However, all of the above could have happened by CHANCE. I'm sure they didn't do it on purpose, but that doesn't mean it never happened! What 3thou$ has been trying to figure out for a while now is exactly what chance occurences happened to effect the shape of the hat/hats, I think.

Just because it wasn't intentional doesn't mean it didn't happen :)

Cheers,

Craig
Hatman
Field Surveyor
Field Surveyor
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 8:48 am
Location: Show Me State

Post by Hatman »

I think if you like the raiders look you do whatever it takes to give you that look. But I have noticed that if you are a long oval it is much easier to get the look that you are looking for. Just pull from front to back on you hat and you will get the reverse taper and the famous raiders brim.
Just a thought,

Hatman
User avatar
Marc
Vendor
Posts: 1646
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:29 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Marc »

Wheather this theory is true or not is not really the point for me. If it makes an Indy Fedora look even more screen accurate or not, THAT is the point for me.

I've been following 3thoubucks theories over the years and can agree to some of them, while others just make me scratch my hat. So? At least he MAKES me scratch my head, in a hobby that started more then 20 years ago for some of us and in which basicly all facts should be discovered by now. This is, what makes this hobby fun. The small nitpicky details (yeah, I'm obsessed :twisted: ).

Did they - perhaps by chance - change the creases that were blocked in on the HJ Poet? - Is it really that important?

Image

The hat in this picture DOES have that certain Raiders Fedora configuration in the back of the top crease. If it was archived the same way as on THE hats - I really don't care.

Thanks for sharing 3thoubucks.

Regards,

Marc
User avatar
Marc
Vendor
Posts: 1646
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:29 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Marc »

Most interesting!

When I first read your review and saw the pics, I thought you had put in these wrinkles artificially... :?

Regards,

Marc
User avatar
3thoubucks
Professor of Archaeology
Professor of Archaeology
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:26 am
Location: San Francisco, California, U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by 3thoubucks »

I've got to admit Langpuss, that is compelling, and a beautiful hat. You've given me a lot to consider...but I don't feel completely blown out of the water yet. . I think my theory is the truth and I'll be back with proof.
Last edited by 3thoubucks on Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ghos7a55assin
Archaeologist
Archaeologist
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:59 am
Location: Moving back to NY

Post by Ghos7a55assin »

dang, that's a nice hat, and cool new avatar, langpuss!
Post Reply