Ladies and Gentlemen, Introducing The Model 1936 Fieldmaster

[JerseyJones]

Good Evening All,

Several months ago, I came across the opportunity to design and produce my own HJ style Indy Hat. I was hesitant at first, but after a lengthy development process and a great deal of input from several of our more esteemed members, I humbly present for you


The Camptown Hat Company's Model 1936 "Fieldmaster"





an alternative angle and light...





This is my prototype which I completed last night. A gallery of photos are available here, http://public.fotki.com/KenKenobi/camptown_hats_model/. I will be adding my actual glossy promo shots in a few days.


This hat is based as closely as possible on the overall design of the HJ Poet as possible. I have also tried to distill as much as I could from the huge amount of data and info from you good dear folks and incorporate it into the design. Details will be finalized, but what you see here is my 001 prototype that is wearable and ready.

My liner and band are not yet finalized but are a work in progress.

The specifications on this hat are as follows:

• 10X medium weight beaver body, pounced and greased

• 5 3/4 inch open crown, dimensionally cut brim (option for uncut 3 inch brim)

• Chocolate Roan ventilated leather sweatband set at an inward angle for breathability

• Dark Brown Ribbon with Traditional Double Bow Tie

• Satin liner with sweatcap

• Shipped in a sturdy white hat box for storage

• Available sizes 7 1/4 to 7 3/4 as of now

Of course the question is how much will this cost ?

That was something that I really wanted to work on for you all. So I made every effort to bring it in for a price that was not so painful as say an Optimo or another custom hat, while retaining some of the custom hat features. With some work, I think I got close.

Estimated Price: $170.00 unshaped, $190.00 shaped to the Raiders or LC style, excluding tax, if applicable, and shipping Payment is available through PayPal or Money Order at this time.

The next question is how long must I wait for this thing !?

The answer, once I am in production on these, they will be turned around fairly quickly. For the time being, I am doing them to order, so I will not retain finished stock on hand, but my best estimate (pending coordinating with my suppilers) is 4 to 6 weeks from order to shipping. This MAY improve some, but that is my most fair estimate to you the customer.

I expect to be in production phase by the first of the year, however, I may be able to get some hats out before then, though I will NOT guarantee this Christmas (I'm good, but I am not Santa ! )

So, I welcome your input and your orders. It pleases me to be able to enter this elite group with my little hat. I hope it brings you as much joy to wear as it does for me to get it to you.

High Regards,

Ken "JerseyJones"

P.S. All I can say is "Let her go !"

[Marc]

So, I welcome your input and your orders.

Hmm... all in all it looks like a descent brown Fedora, but if you want to offer an Indy Fedora in the Raiders style, there are quite some things that need to be taken care of yet. Granted, this is a proto, so I assume you're in the development phase yet.

I like the color of both felt and ribbon, but that alone wouldn't bring me to buy the hat (as a Raiders fan that is). The brim looks too short compared to the crown. The knot on the double bow is too long. Also the stitches on the ribbon could have been a bit less obvious. The ribbon has wrinkles. The bash doesn't look very accurate either - which I suppose is due to the block, which seems to only have a radius in the transition point and then being completely flat in the middle. There's a visible ring on the brim around the crown - as if the brim wasn't ironed properly.

10X medium weight beaver body, pounced and greased

So what beaver content does it have? 10X can be anything from 0.10% to 100% beaver fur. Please specify.

Chocolate Roan ventilated leather sweatband set at an inward angle for breathability

Personally I prefer the un-ventilated sweats, but what do you mean with "set at an inward angle"? Do you mean that the sweat bails? With all due respect, but isn't that standard on a well made hat?!

Satin liner with sweatcap

Hmmm... plastic.... not really my taste, but of course only personal preference.

Estimated Price: $170.00 unshaped, $190.00 shaped to the Raiders or LC style, excluding tax, if applicable, and shipping

Of course I don't know, what you mean with 10X yet, but for 35bux more, I can get an Adventurebilt in PURE BEAVER with the PERFECT block, VINTAGE grosgrain ribbon, HAND SEWN sweatband and bashed to copy my favorite scene from Raiders.

Now you might be fuming over my nitpicky attitude, but if you really wanna sell these hats as Indy Fedoras, I think you'll need to improve your product.

Regards,

Marc

[JAN]

Now you might be fuming over my nitpicky attitude, but if you really wanna sell these hats as Indy Fedoras, I think you'll need to improve your product.

LOL, Marc, You rock...

All I saw was a hat..

Best regards

JAN

[Havana]

JerseyJones, I want to applaude your efforts. Be sure to take any criticism as constructive. It's not easy starting out in a new craft where the standards are so high and your target consumers are so knowledgeable/demanding. I want to encourage you and wish you luck in the further development of your craft and your business. Just keep making it up as you go.

[JerseyJones]

Hello all,

Your comments are well met and to answer generally, this is a prototype. My friend and hatmaker is vastly better at ribbon setting than I am and heck it was my very first ribbon ever. I assure you that the ribbon, which is Pyroxene's btw, will be neat and straight.

As to beaver content, it is a 70% beaver blend.

The sweatband is also not finalized by any means. As to angle all I mean is that it has a miniscule gap between the hat crown sidewall and the inner edge of the band such that when you put it on the band will breathe more. I can change this but I have tested both and I really liked the difference. As to whether it is standard on a well made hat, I think a well installed leather band that is secure and comfortable qualifies as well made.

The ring I will address though I don't see it in person. It could be a function of the pictures.

As I also said the prices are estimated. What I am trying to avoid is setting unrealistic expectations, but I have a strong belief that I MAY be able to reduce this price even further.

Although there is some dispute over the block, I think this block is well suited to the hat, though there may be some changes made as well. The dimensions are very similar to the HJ.

The brim is also shown as a prototype; it is not a finalized cut. The bash is also not finalized and to a large degree is a matter of personal taste. Understanding that, I will keep track of the comments made here for those who want their hats bashed.

I thought by indicating that this is a prototype I would make clear that the final cut so to speak was yet to be made. I wanted to give everyone a chance to see it and get involved. My hope ultimately is to be able to put out a excellent beaver blend hat that can get to the customer quickly, likely even more quickly than I quoted above. I don't pretend to call it a custom hat; I am aiming for a production hat that can get close to custom quality.

Thank you for your collective commentary. A lot of these items are already being addressed before you said it, but I will print and save this thread's comments as I go.

Thanks much !

Ken

[Michaelson]

I agree, Langpuss. It's one thing to offer constructive criticism, but man, that's quite a broadside you fired into his waterline, Marc.

I have been aware of this project since it's inception, as I was Steve's, and it was going on at the same time Fedora was starting his initial start up phase, so don't treat JJ or his hat like it was something that was just thrown together with absolutely no thought toward the final product, or that it was only jumpstarted with Fedora's announcement of HIS hat project. They were going on independent of each other, and yet at the same time through different processes.

The key word here was 'prototype', which was stated twice in his post. This is NOT the final product, so the comments regarding the wrinkles on the brim, or the ribbon set up did not exactly help, as he said this was the first that HE made so he could offer photos of what direction the product will go as things were coming together. This was exactly what other vendors have done here as items were developing. I do not recall anyone blasting Fedora when he posted photos of his unfinished hat bodies? I mean, I could have gone on and on how they weren't even blocked, let alone in any sort of Indy style. A silly observation, of COURSE they weren't. They were only glimpses of what was coming, or would soon be available.

Excuse me for offering a mild 'vent', but I've seen to many start ups reamed like this, and have to say something. There's constructive critism, and the proverbial (and mentioned) nit picking of a prototype offering. Look at the base, not the protytype 'hand attached' window dressing. This is why a lot of folks don't offer items to us on a broader scale, and keep a LOT of the REALLY good stuff to themselves. One thing that JJ DIDN'T tell you is that he wore this hat to work yesterday, and sold two right off the bat to folks who actually saw and handled this hat in first person. More often than not, photos do NOT do an item justice.

This prototype looks pretty good to my eye, and believe me, I've had just about everything made for the Indyfan go through my hands. I'm looking forward to seeing one of these in the flesh. Once a production model is made, professionally photographed, and posted as what is now available, then it's fair game for any discussion or debates.

Let's be fair in our observations when these first come to the table, ESPECIALLY when we're dealing with prototypes.

Ok, help me off my soapbox.

Regards. Michaelson

[JAN]

the standards are so high and your target consumers are so knowledgeable/demanding

Havana has a really good point here. 2-3 years ago we all would have droped dead, but expectations has rosen.

I remember buying my first Golden Idol - wow! it was a gem, and I had a heck of a time just getting it.
These days that Idol would go for a penny if it could be solded at all - the awareness for details has grown very high.

And we all should welcome that - but it is giving new vendors a hard time -as only the best will do.

Best regards

JAN

[Michaelson]

No argument with that. I just think we should give the plane the opportunity to take off first before shooting it down. It's only fair. That's all I'm saying.

I also feel the need to add the following....I was the one who advised JJ to go ahead and post photos of his first pass, or the '001' as he calls it, for all to see, as I will be offline after this Friday for the Christmas holidays, and wanted to make sure folks had the opportunity to see and enjoy knowing what was coming down the pipeline. I had no idea that he would receive the flack he did right out of the gate for a product he's been sweating bullets over for months, as he's a full time lawyer, and has been working on this in his spare time. In his case, him being a new Dad, his 'free time' is usually late at night, and weekends. I know he's on the right track as he made two sales showing a hat that he installed a temporary ribbon, and borrowed a hat liner from one of his old hats just so he would wear it to field test it. He had no plans on sales, but folks were asking HIM to purchase them. That speaks volumes to me.

So, JJ, I apologise publically to you for suggesting you post your progress to date. Maybe folks weren't as ready as I THOUGHT they'd be, but now the word is out. Press on, and I look forward to seeing how this progresses.

Highest regards. Michaelson

[JAN]

I totally agree!

And I think Marc did a favour by pointing out factual issues about the
fedora. Now Jersey Jones have the knowledge and the oppotunity to
alter his fine fedora to the pleasing of this crowd.

And Marc is one the guys inhere that knows a lot about hats - the word "passion" come to my mind

But maybe we could have crossed a cultural difference between americans and europeans by the way they express themselves.

I find americans are very polite, and surely dont want to hurt anyone -
that sometimes include holding back ones true oppinion, while europeans are more frank - ask them how they look at things and You´ll get it straight from the heart (did I hear some talking about elephants in a glassstore, nahh couldn´t be..)

So there You have it Ask and get an answer...

Best regards

JAN

[Marc]

Thank you Jan! If I ever need a lawyer, I'll let you know

All kidding aside: Jan hit the nail in his posts. If someone got the impression that I was trying to "shot the plane before it had the opportunity to take off" (I hope you don't mind for quoting you Mark, but I like the term), let me assure you that this was NOT my intention. I love to see as many planes in the air as possible, so to speak, but I want to see them FLY, not crash.

I wanted to point out the things, that I think need to be improved yet. Believe it or not, but I actually thought I would support Ken with the post above. I consider Steve a good friend: but try and ask him if there weren't times when he wouldn't have liked to kick my bottom, when we were discussing block shapes. If he can say "nope" with a good conscience, he's a better man than even I thought of him. Sentences like "naah, that transition point is to round and too low. Better make it 1/8" higher and more to the outside" comes to my mind Or ask Charlie how he lost his mouth (and that takes something ) when he first read my 400 words of specs. for an open crown hat. Yes, I'm nitpicky, EXTREMELY nitpicky and well aware of it. But also honest. And that is - what I think - more than important in the development phase, where things are easier to change than later.

@Ken: for a 70% beaver blend, this is a really good price. It pleases me to see, that peoples attitude towards quality makes vendors come up with better products. Yours included.

Regarding the sweatband: very good point. It not only helps the band to breath more, but it will also be able to stretch a little, when the head swells during hiking trips in the summer seasons.

Regarding the block: 3,000bux made a very well written thread about the Raiders block, based on some reverse engineering he made on his duct tape Fedora (it's called "top secret" - I think). Read it and it will save you lots of sleepless nights.

The brim is very difficult to make right, so is the double bow. I recommend using a more "swoopy" brim flange and reading Dalexs most excellent ribbon tutorial.

Again: I didn't want to shot the plane before it has a chance to lift off. Just wanted to make sure, that the wings are well attached

Regards,

Marc

[JerseyJones]

Sorry see next post !

[JerseyJones]

I didn't get the impression that Marc was being destructive at all. His observations were important and legitimate. I knew he meant well and I think he tried to point that out as well.

JJ, I'm pleased you took the comments the right way and look forward to seeing your hat develop!

Thanks Lang,

First I'll remember for my next project to BOLD the word prototype .

I'll try to nutshell here:

I have seen and owned in person nearly every hat in the game here but for an HJ, Adventurebilt, Miller and Optimo. On those I have read and read and read some more and talked to folks like Fedora about the hats.

My Goal: I intend this hat to be a fine, tough affordable production Indy hat and I think the fruit of this intention is played out in my prototype lid with my specifications derived from the original Raiders era Poet.

I was, however, well aware that it needed adjusting. Since we did the first shell very quickly for some reasons I cannot get into at this moment, the brim on my size 61 came in at 2 3/4 all around. Not quite what I'd wanted, so I hand cut by eye an 1/8 off beginning at the front and back of the crown. Proving that I am NOT Swales !

So I knew that I was still in developmental mode and tried to express that right off ...oh well !

As to, and I am paraphrasing here, having to do better, rest assured I can and I will. I have been consulting with and continue to consult closely with Fedora on the development of this hat from the base shells to the prototype and so far I seem to be on the right track, so he tells me.

I am aiming to make a real working hat that is more refined and very competitve with Akubra Deluxes, Kepplers, PB's and basically any production fedora hat and some hand mades I have seen, in terms of features to price ratio. This is my goal but I do NOT mean to disparage ANYONE ! Please do not misunderstand me there, I love my PB to death, for example !

I feel confident that I know a good hat as well as many, better than some, and not as well as others. Just like everyone else in the world. So the input really helps.

@ the comments above

Brim - I don't intend to use a brim flange on this hat. This is by design a flat brimmed dimensionally cut brim to be shaped by hand by me or the buyer as was the Original Poet. As to swoop factor, once I finalize the brim proportions, the swoop will be the owner's personal choice.

Liners - I favor a sweat cap simply because I see this as a real working hat. It could just as easily be deleted, I suppose, but since this hat is made to capture the rugged workmanlike durability of the PB Custom with the feel and look inspired by the finer dressier hats like PB Borsalino and to a degree Optimo, in such a way as I am told the original Poet's did, it seems like a must to me.

Ribbon Wrinkles, stitches et. al. - All will be made right with the production models. I did my newbie best since I had never done a ribbon before at all. In fact, I bet that if I go and clean up the stitching and the bow layout, that the hat looks more appealing just as it is. I admit that doing this while trying to watch and feed my son at 2:00 in the morning might not have been my best idea.

Pricing - I think that the $170.00 mark for a beaver based Fed you can style to your liking in the Original HJ proportions is fair. But things may change for better even more if possible.

So to my potential customers, do not mistake the issues of a prototype for a lack of quality, if anything, it will be the basis for an excellent affordable and readily available hat.

Stay tuned.

Thanks and Peace

Ken

[Snakewhip_Sable]

I know it's a Raiders hat and all, Jersey, but danged if'n you don't look EXACTLY like I picture Phillip Marlowe when I read a Chandler novel!! Another tough-guy-in-over-his-head type.

[Farnham54]

Looks like it's coming along well, Jersey.

I think everyone should try to keep in mind that the nuances of the spoken word are not as easily trasnferred on Internet forums, and as such things that in person would be friendly chat, when typed they seem rather impolite.

We've got a great bunch of people here, though, and as was stated before any critizism offered was, i'm sure, offered with the best intentions.

I am looking forward to seeing the final product, Jersey!

Cheers,
Craig

[JerseyJones]

the nuances of the spoken word are not as easily trasnferred on Internet forums, and as such things that in person would be friendly chat, when typed they seem rather impolite.

Oh, how many times my sarcastic humor has burned me because of this very fact, my friend.

JerseyJones, you should get the title of "VENDOR" on your avatar now too, eh?

As soon as I vend something I suppose.

Ken

[Fedora]

I think some really great suggestions have been made here. To me, I think the block needs to be changed, per our last conversation. This is a rough crew here when it comes to Indy fedoras. My blockmaker sent me a similiar block(one that he thought I was after), and it was very close to this one. The block sorta reminded me of a barrel, curving in at the top and less so at the bottom. Once I blocked a couple of hats on it, I knew I needed to keep looking. I finally went back to my original design, and had this replicated, or rather used an old stock block that was really close. Marc and I spent weeks, on the phone and exchanging pics of blocks, and hats blocked on a particular block. So, he is real sensitive toward block shapes. He once made the comment that if someone were eavesdropping on our block converstion, we would be deemed insane. But, we both get into this stuff, and communicated on a higher level.


I have tried every block shape out there, and in the end this is what you need for the Raiders fedora. A stove pipe with the right radius on top. If you have after the LC look, go with a stove pipe as viewed from the front, and 1/4 inch taper front and back, with a rather flattish crown dome.

Hang in there Jersey. The more hatters the better. regards, Fedora

[JerseyJones]

Hang in there Jersey. The more hatters the better. regards, Fedora

Thanks Fedora ! I shall do that.

Peace
Ken

[3thoubucks]

JJ- I really like the color of the felt, and the ribbon color looks very acurate to me. ..Steve, my Raiders block has evolved into a 100% stovepipe as well. About a week ago. DANG! You beat me to it! .. Stovepipe is where it's at. You're probably right about JJ having a barrel shaped block, but my impression was that his head was a lot rounder than the hat's opening. My block has gone from a regular oval to a long oval, to match my head shape. With a stovepipe, you don't need to stretch the hat lengthwise to eliminate side taper, still, a slight front to back stretch seems to help overall.

[binkmeisterRick]

I've been asked by JJ to toss my pennies in, so here's my opinion. Ready, Jersey? Here it comes!

First of all, I realize this is just a prototype and not the final product, so it's a matter of taking in al the comments and building from there...

I have to agree that the color of the felt is nice. I like that the hat looks soft and pliable, though I'd obviously have to feel one in my hands to say it is with all certainty. The ribbon contrast looks good, too. I've had a hat with Pyro's ribbon on it and I like the color of this ribbon. It's a nice looking fedora and looks like something from the era. I'm glad you're trying to offer a stock fedora with some nice features for comfort. I also like what you're naming this hat. T"he 1936 Fieldmaster" is a very classy title.

As for it being truly an Indy hat at this point, it's not quite there yet. Though I am not a master of hat block speak, the proportions of crown versus brim don't look right to me. From the front stand alone view, my first reaction tells me that the crown doesn't look tall enough and that the brim dimensions are off. But the angled view makes it look much better for some reason. Also, I think the crown needs to be a little more stovepipe to nail the Indy look.

In my opinion, if you're offering this hat as a "stock Indy" and not really a custom per sae, I'd rather have the brim sent to me uncut or have it precut using a brim cutter rather than by hand. I know there's much talk about the Swales cut, but if Swales isn't the one cutting it, then it's not really a Swales cut at all, is it? I guess I feel that if I want the edges to look rough in any way, it should be by my hand. That, and for the price, I'd want a clean, machine cut brim.

I'm glad you're talking with Fedora and asking our opinions so you can move forward and make improvements on the next prototype. As it is, it looks like a very nice fedora, and if you've already recieved two unsolicited orders from people who have seen this hat in person, then it must be a testament to the quality of the hat. It's a great start (better than I'd be able to produce!) and I look forward to seeing how your offering takes shape.

Keep us posted!

bink

[JerseyJones]

For purposes of clarification on the brim:

You will NOT get this brim !

A little backstory, this prototype began as a test cut 2 3/4 non dimensional body for my reference and I just decided to turn it into my prototype on my own. Until I did this I had never set a ribbon or did a dimensional cut brim.

I cut the brim by hand and by eye ( I think I need glasses...) just to effect a little dimensional cut to it. Rest assured that when I bring this back to my hat maker, he will laugh at me for this.

I intend to use the original dimensions lifted from Swales letter to one of our board members or upon request, leave it uncut.

In a nutshell . . . the brim will be nice and even.

Thanks to all for the input on this baby. And Bink you put it best, it is intended to be a stock Indy fedora that just happens to be very fine quality too.

To the "HatPoles !"

Ken

[binkmeisterRick]

Thanks to all for the input on this baby. And Bink you put it best, it is intended to be a stock Indy fedora that just happens to be very fine quality too.

That's why I'm hoping everything works out for you when you get up and running, Ken! Thanks for clarifying the "cut" on the brim, though. If it's the Swales dimensions, but doesn't really 'look' hand cut, then I think that's great. I just know what MY hand cut brims look like. Again, I think it's more than a good start and I look forward to seeing the next prototype.

bink

[Sergei]

JJ,
You have my support (whatever that means). ) Seriously, it takes a lot of effort to jump start something like this project and then request opinions on a prototype. I think you have seriously developed something here for those collectors that like to own an actual HJ. Dealing with the "Home Office" at HJ has been an ordeal. You at least brought some sanity to those that want a Herbert Johnson.

Congrats,
-Sergei
p.s. BTW, you should somehow capture the HJ logo into the liner. But you being the lawyer, would know the issues. )

[SHARPETOYS]

Sergei wrote

You have my support (whatever that means). Seriously, it takes a lot of effort to jump start something like this project and then request opinions on a prototype. I think you have seriously developed something here for those collectors that like to own an actual HJ. Dealing with the "Home Office" at HJ has been an ordeal. You at least brought some sanity to those that want a Herbert Johnson.

Congrats,
-Sergei
p.s. BTW, you should somehow capture the HJ logo into the liner. But you being the lawyer, would know the issues.


Correct me if i'm wrong i don't think this is a HJ hat but his version.

I hope your project goes well.

[Mola Ram]

sorry to go off topic,
But who made that great looking whip?!
Adam

[JerseyJones]

sorry to go off topic,
But who made that great looking whip?!
Adam

That is my Joe Strain DM455 clone. Ten foot of thunder.

And can I take your order !

Thanks and Peace
Ken

[JerseyJones]

Sergei wrote

You have my support (whatever that means). Seriously, it takes a lot of effort to jump start something like this project and then request opinions on a prototype. I think you have seriously developed something here for those collectors that like to own an actual HJ. Dealing with the "Home Office" at HJ has been an ordeal. You at least brought some sanity to those that want a Herbert Johnson.

Congrats,
-Sergei
p.s. BTW, you should somehow capture the HJ logo into the liner. But you being the lawyer, would know the issues.


Correct me if i'm wrong i don't think this is a HJ hat but his version.

I hope your project goes well.

It's not and HJ, but the old HJ is my model for my hat.

Thanks for looking !

Ken

[JerseyJones]

A brief update to those interested, the hat prototype is being currently revised, but the proto itself is currenly in what I call torture testing. No treatment rain exposure, sat on, punched, kicked .....and surviving it all very well. I hope to have some new info for everyone by the end of the month.

Thanks for the advice and stay tuned !

Peace
Ken

[Mr. Z]

Just wondering if there are any new updates on these. Thanks!

[bigrex]

Just wondering if there are any new updates on these. Thanks!

Um, if you scrolled down it's right on the top of the latest threads in the fedora section, right below this one at present. Here's the link:

viewtopic.php?t=22868&start=150

[Mr. Z]

Got it; thanks man.