Do you do the Raiders Turn?

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:20 am

It seems there is a lot of discussion about the Raiders Turn.
3thoubucks discovered it, Fedora will turn one for you...

The question is, do you do the turn?

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:42 am

Oh yeah. It just looks so much cooler, in my opinion. I love the way it looks with the brim dipping down in front of my eye and the crown slightly off center. It just rocks.

Regards,
Strider

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:46 pm

All I am going to say is that I think it is rediculous, simple as that.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:25 pm

Bogie1943 wrote:All I am going to say is that I think it is rediculous, simple as that.

The turn? What's so wrong with it? You don't think it looks cool?

Regards,
Strider

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:32 pm

I think it is just silly, it is not the source of the Raiders shape, niether are wire rings and anything like that.

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:45 pm

I am pretty sure there hasn't been a poll about this before, thus I thought I should make one.

I'm surprised- I thought a greater percentage so far would turn their hats for the Raiders shape, it's still the weekend though I guess.

Personally, I don't think there was a wire, but I do think the hat was turned, albeit accidently. My HJ, when it came, seemed to be turned already- the stitching on the joint of the sweatband, where the bow and size tag are were off centre in comparison with the rest of the hat.

Bogie, do you have a hat that is Raidersesque (now there's a word) that isn't turned and still looks right?

Good to know you guys can dance too. I have no idea, I look more like Forrest Gump when I try.

English Adventurer · Post by **English Adventurer** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:55 pm

I look more like Forrest Gump when I try

Can I have a chocolate?

Ian

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:02 pm

Can I have a chocolate?

Anything you tell me to, Drill Sargeant!!!

Yes, my girlfriend can dance... but I was not blessed with that kind of ability... I'm more comfortable behind a guitar.

Kentucky Blues · Post by **Kentucky Blues** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:07 pm

Nope, and I agree with Bogie. I'm not entirely sure whether the hat was turned or not, but I don't go for exact screen accuracy really, especially with my hats. I wear hats all the time, and I don't even have a "screen accurate" hat that I can wear as of now (I'm working on it) but when I do get one, it'll still be my hat and not indy's from Raiders, and so will not have the turn. I prefer all of my hats to be straight, its just the way I like them

High Regards, Daryl

Falstaff · Post by **Falstaff** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:48 pm

I have one fedora that's straight and quite the dress hat, but I have an Aventurebilt on the way that's turned. I figure that I wanted at least one fedora that was more screen accurate to the first hat that I ever really took notice of--the Raiders fedora. But, of course, this is a personal choice. Some people want something that's as close to what they saw on the silver screen and possible, and some just want and nice hat or jacket that they can enjoy for whatever reason. I like both and think that the turn has its place as does a symetrical hat with nice, clean lines.

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:49 pm

I think it is just silly, it is not the source of the Raiders shape, niether are wire rings and anything like that.

I agree with Bogie, and Kentucky BLues. I know we are probably in the minority here, but I find it very hard to believe the hats (or the one hat we see like that) was intentionally turned. Also, there are so many scenes in Raiders where the hats brim does not look that way.

Just me 2 cents.

I J

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:44 pm

Melty Man wrote:Well, if you look at the Raiders bow, it is over Ford's sideburn...not his ear. The only way it can get there is by turning the hat, my friend.

DUH! Or the person that sewed on the ribbon and bow sewed it on a little more to the front. Sew on 100 ribbons and bows and see how many you get in the exact same location on an oval hat no less.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:49 pm

What Noel said. The Raiders hat is turned. Personally, I doubt that the turn was conceived by Deborah Nadoolman, Spielberg or Lucas - I do believe the answer lies in the way Harrison Ford prefers to wear his hats. If this is due to his personal preference or general head shape, I dare not say. But the thing is, if one looks at screenshots from all three movies, he does generally wear his front pinch a little off-center. What caused someone to move the front pinch in the Raiders hat, thus leaving the hat 'permanently turned' when worn with centered pinch, I do not know. However, the 'brim swoop' caused by the turn is - IMO - undisputed nowadays.

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:54 pm

Apologies if you've seen this before- but 3thoubuck's website seems to be the best explanation for it all: http://www.raidershat.com

Mmmm- 25 votes so far, 9 for, 10 against (with a bit of jazz/swing in there) and 6 thinking about it...

webley420 · Post by **webley420** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:58 pm

I was one of the guys who voted no.

Sheffield Jones · Post by **Sheffield Jones** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:36 pm

I wear mine turned,with scrap pieces of strap in front and back of the sweat band.

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:33 pm

The turn looks good on Indy, but I'm not Indy. I prefer the symmetry of an unturned lid.

IndianaCollins · Post by **IndianaCollins** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:13 pm

Hey, anybody got the linkt to the thing about how to do the turn thing? I've been quite interested in it lately

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:43 am

The cause of the Raiders shape came from several factors, being these. One the hat the Harrison Ford wore was very very floppy, no stiffener what so ever. Secondly, Ford is a long oval whereas the hat itself was a regular oval. Third, that hat was a size too small for Ford, and hence was quit tight. These factors added to the warped look of the lid and you can prove it to yourself by taking your lid into your hands, placing one finger in the hat on the sweatband, one in the front and one in the back and pull them away from each other, the hat warps. Another factor is what Ford did to the hat himself, and there is footage of it. Ford would play with the hat, stroking the sides of the brim upward. It's as simple as that, logical, the turn, I just don't believe in.

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:47 am

One thing about Herbert Johnson is that thier hats just aren't as good as they used to be. The modern day "Poet" is nothing like the original Raiders hat and that shows. Most of the HJ Poets I have seen have been made with rough, poor quality hat bodies. Another factor with HJ is that the original hat body supplier, that the Raiders lid was made out of, is no longer around or no longer offers that body so HJ had to switch.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:10 am

The folks that don't believe in the turn theory,
have you TRIED turning the hat to see the effect brought on by this?
Just curious.
I was skeptical of this theory as well, until I tried turning the hat and seeing the brim contort into the shape you see in the Cairo hat.
I don't know if all the hats were turned in Raiders, but the Cairo hat has got to be turned.
I'm not saying it was the intention to get the brim to look that way, just the way it ended up. I think he put the hat on crooked, someone saw the brim and thought it looked cool,..maybe even Harrison himself, and then just popped out the bash and centered it to fit the turn.
'Blues

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:21 am

Bogie1943 wrote:These factors added to the warped look of the lid and you can prove it to yourself by taking your lid into your hands, placing one finger in the hat on the sweatband, one in the front and one in the back and pull them away from each other, the hat warps.

Josh, this pic would seem to dispute that?
I don't see the taper that you'd get from the pulling apart of the front and back of the hat. I've tried it many times...

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:28 am

I am only talking about the warping of the brim, and he has the hat resting on his head in that pic, not pulled down. Yes I have tried the turned theory, I do my research, not just talk about things. I simply do not agree with the theory, I agree with the one I spoke of above. Yes, indeed this has been gone over many times before, it is a classic arguement. Here is the bottom line to it all, some believe in this and some believe in that. It's just one of those classic Indy Gear mysteries that has been around and debated for years. Just believe what you believe but do your research no matter you believe.

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:44 am

It's just one of those classic Indy Gear mysteries that has been around and debated for years. Just believe what you believe but do your research no matter you believe.

Yeah, you are right...

It is interesting to see that it's not as widely supported as I had previously thought.

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:10 am

Indeed, there are many mysteries in this hobby because none of us were there to steal any of the gear from all three films. I mean, it just another one of those things, like why is Ford left jacket pocket flap always tucked in, in TOD, I dunno, maybe we will never know, lol.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:36 am

Bogie1943 wrote:, like why is Ford left jacket pocket flap always tucked in, in TOD, I dunno, maybe we will never know, lol.

Really??? I never noticed that. Just what I needed, another reason to watch an Indy film

As far as the turn theory, it is just that,.. a theory. I guess it is all in how you perceive it. We'll never really find out the truth, unless our boy Ford decides to pop up here and read us the Riot Act concerning all things Indy Gear.
'Blues

Ghos7a55assin · Post by **Ghos7a55assin** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 3:56 am

I think the turn just adds something to the hat. In fact, I like it so much, I put a bit of a turn into another Akubra dress fedora that I bought. It adds some extra tilt when you put the hat on slightly jauntily.

Merrick · Post by **Merrick** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:15 am

IndyBlues wrote: We'll never really find out the truth, unless our boy Ford decides to pop up here and read us the Riot Act concerning all things Indy Gear.
'Blues

Imagine if he actually did that... Many would then turn around and then argue that would Ford even remember? He musta worn a hundred hats throughout the films surely he cant remember how all of them were fitted, some turned some not. Would he have cared enough at the time to even notice?

Anyway I havent turned mine, I'm lucky (well in this hobby it is anyway) to have the long oval shaped head, which distorts the brim into the desired look. My front pinch is off centre, but that's purely from my own stupidity when I first bashed it. The actual hat sits straight.

Lindiana · Post by **Lindiana** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:20 am

I have to agree about not doing the raiders turn, I unintentionally did it with my Akubra when bashing it and it looks ok, but my Keppler did it with a little steam. Remember the way the original got it was but someones bum sitting on it repeatedly, something I really can't bring myself to do to a nice looking hat.
Lindiana

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:48 pm

Turning hats is nothing new. Sometimes, in the old days, hats were just worn turned and the bashes were worn off center. Sometimes the entire hat was tilted and stuck on one side of the head. The idea was to achieve a dramatic brim.

Watch any old gangster movie and you will see all sorts of hats: turned hats, unbashed hats, center dents, tear-drops. People have been struggling for drama and difference in their hats for years.

Those that doubt the turn, ask yourself why many professional hatters endorse the idea and replicate it in their own work. These craftsman have worked with hundreds of hats from a variety of sources, different felts, brims, crowns, and they have concluded that the hat is turned. Consider for a moment that perhaps their opinion in the matter carries great weight and consequence.

Personally, I believe that hat was turned. I believe it is self-evident. Also, I think that hat was sized down and forced onto his head in an effort to keep it on during filming. I think that this is the reason for the reverse taper: the hat is tight under the bow, drawing it in, then up towards the crown it is loose and roomy, thus mushrooming.

But, we can all disagree without being disagreeable.

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:53 pm

My new Adventurebilt is on the way, with the turn. After looking at some of Langpusses excellent hats which were turned, and turning my old stetson and watching the brim swoop down and the crown mushroom out, I was sold on the turn.

What, you do not believe? You will, you will become a true believer of the Raiders Turn! Bwahahahaha!

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:11 pm

I voted no. I've never believed it myself, but as said, to each 'his' own. Regards. Michaelson

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:22 pm

How many recent HJ buyers have recieved the hat with the crown slightly blocked to the left of the center of the dimensional cut brim thereby recreating the turn right out of the box?

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:49 pm

Dakota Ellison wrote:How many recent HJ buyers have recieved the hat with the crown slightly blocked to the left of the center of the dimensional cut brim thereby recreating the turn right out of the box?

Me. My HJ came pretty much turned straight out of the box. It was only a slight turn, but enough to distort the brim somewhat off-centre.

Wow. 43 votes cast. 16 for, 18 against and 9 thinking about it...

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:20 pm

Yeah you're probably right...

Maybe a Mod could edit it to simply 'yes' and 'no' with do you believe as the question... it's no big deal though.'

Do you BELIEVE in the turn

That sounds scarily religious...

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:23 pm

I don't believe in it, nor do I do it, I think that it is a posiibility, it does create the "effect". However, I feel that the theory I spoke of is the actualy cause of the look and not the turn. With the turn there are just too many flaws, one you would have to re-bash the hat off center and the ribbon would have to be moved. With the theory I spoke of the same effect happends and if you play with a lid the Harry did, you can get the same effect. You can even create the dimple in the brim by doing what I spoke of with your hat. You can also create the warped brim look by pulling the hat down by the brim like Harry did. Like I said it's all in Harry and what he did to the hat and what his head did to the hat.

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:09 pm

Those that doubt the turn, ask yourself why many professional hatters endorse the idea and replicate it in their own work.

Absolutely nothing against Hemingway....

Then again, look at other who have painstakingly re created THE hat from years and years of research. Keppler for one; who has probably done more research in this hobby than most of us combined. His hats arent turned and they never will be. Now that I think about it, out of all the vendors Ive spoken to and seen examples of their work, not one has turned the hat sideways.
But thats just me, and there are lots of hat makers I havent ever talked to.

Like I said it's all in Harry and what he did to the hat and what his head did to the hat.

The explanation is right there.

Best regards to all

I J

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:15 pm

Indiana James wrote:

Absolutely nothing against Hemingway....

Thank you for that!

not one has turned the hat sideways.

Is anyone seriously advocating that? I turned mine about two and a half centimetes. My Adventurebilt also has a slight turn.

Aren't polarizing issues fun!

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:32 pm

Hey dont get defensive, as it is not my intention to stir anything. What I meant was, none of the vendors sell their hats rotated....with the exception of Fedora.
Alright Im done now, Im here to make friends, not the opposite.

Sorry for the confusion.

I J

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:38 pm

I wonder why 3thoubucks doesn't jump in.

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:59 pm

James wrote:

Hey dont get defensive, as it is not my intention to stir anything. What I meant was, none of the vendors sell their hats rotated....with the exception of Fedora.
Alright Im done now, Im here to make friends, not the opposite.
Sorry for the confusion.

I'm not getting defensive, James. I am always tongue-in-cheek. I have no problem with you. I have read your posts and I hold you in high esteem. I hope you consider me a friend, as I do, you.

BTW, Replix turns hats also. Todd's will style, but I don't know if he turns.
All the best,
HJ

zeus36 · Post by **zeus36** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:02 pm

Whether or not the Raiders hat was turned is a moot point. The real question is: "Does it work for you?"

Maybe it should be referred to as the "Fedora Turn" instead.
(no reference to Steve at Adventurebuilt)

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:10 pm

I have read your posts and I hold you in high esteem. I hope you consider me a friend, as I do, you.

I feel the same way m'friend!!

Good call Zeus!!

Best regards
IJ

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:40 pm

Melty Man wrote:You must turn. For a Raiders lid, it is a complete must. Look at my avatar and Pagey's. It is not a Raiders hat without it. Period.

I kindly disagree with that statement, Noel. While spec'ing out my Adventurebilt, Fedora reminded me that not ALL scenes in Raiders have the turn. He said that the turn didn't really show itself in the opening sequence and some Hawaii shots, though by the time they moved filming to England, the turn was pretty evident. So either way, with OR without the turn, you can still have a screen acurate Raiders fedora. I opted for the "early" Raiders look.

But I do believe that the turn happens and that just by placing the hat on your head differently, the turn can be accomplished. Yes, Harrison's head shape and the size of the hat come into play. But most importantly, I think it's the FELT that makes the turn happen easier. Again, my vintage Dobbs is a thinner felt and just by moving the hat round my noggin I can get the brim to do different things. My Akubra, however, is a much thicker and stiffer felt and the turn would take an off-centre reblocking for it to work right and wear comfortably.

Was the turn intentional? I don't think so. I think it's just because of how he wears it on his head. Is the turn necesssary? Nope. But it is a mater of personal preference.

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Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:41 pm

You put your hat on,
You take your hat off,
You put your hat on,
And you turn it all about.
You do the Hokey Pokey and turn your hat around.
That's what it's all about!

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:58 pm

LOL, well done Holly, well done indeed, I love you.

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:57 am

Josh, glad it met with your liking. Heheeeehee!

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:57 am

Click this link http://www.raidershat.com/Page2.html and scroll down to the 5th row of pics. The first pic is from the tarantula scene. The front dent is weird and the brim only dips at the very front. Then the hat gets turned, I believe. (first seen when Indy swings over the pit) In the next pic, the "That's what scares me.." scene, and the standard front dent is present, and the the brim flips down just in front of the sideburn. Turning your hat produces the "front of sideburn" flip every time (and only on the right side of the brim). ...Now, scroll down to the next two pics and see evidence of the old front pinch. The old front pinch (pinches) in my PBBM exactly duplicate the one in the Raiders hat. I adjusted my front pinch a little, thus there are two right next to each other. I took that pic of my hat before I was even aware of that Raiders grab. Aparently, Ford moved the original front pinch a few millimeters also. I mean, there's no line on the sweatband that shows you where the exact front of the hat is.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:50 am

I own a vintage Borsalino that I wear more than most my collection. It's made of the good old vintage soft felt. I was recently complimented by a regular here on the fine 'turn job' that I had done on my hat. I have NEVER turned a hat, ever. The Borsalino will not hold the front dents in the same location when worn, it's that pliable and soft. It appears to be turned, but it is not. It shows the same swoop at any given time when being worn as any photos that have been shown on this site to date. It's all in the shape of the head, the make of the hat and the quality of the felt.

Now, as I said before, discuss away, but this writer travels a different road.

Regards. Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:23 am

Gee, Michaelson, I seem to remember seeing that hat somewhere...

My vintage Dobbs is much the same way, but the felt isn't quite as thin as that Borsalino. Nonetheless, the Dobbs also has a very responsive felt which gives it a completely different character depending upon whose head it's resting on at the time. I think the Raiders turn wasn't "made," rather, it just rested on Ford's head that way. If we could see the original hat Ford wore now, I doubt we'd see an adjusted sweatband made to accommodate the turn. If he had worn an Akubra in Raiders, I doubt the turn would've happened at all since the Akubra has a much thicker felt.

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