Has anyone bought a FS Expedition RECENTLY, than please help

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:27 am

I'm about to get myself a new Indy jacket and think about getting myself a FS Expedition this time, just for the variation.

Now, I've heard rummors regarding loooong delivery times and that the quality from G&B is no longer what it once was etc.

Would those of you who recently bought this particular jacket please give me your opinion on the subject. Also, do you see any differences regarding the quality to Expeditions ordered earlier?

Thank,

Marc

Axel · Post by **Axel** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:30 pm

Marc,

I bought a dark brown goat Expo back in June of this year. My jacket was a clearance item so I had it in a week. It was a made-to-measure 40R torso with 40 short sleeves. The fit and quality were perfect. I don't have any experience with older Expos, but I did have a Cooper (U.S. Wings) cowhide Indy jacket for many years. I much prefer the Expo.

I wonder what delivery time they are quoting for new orders?

Axel

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:29 pm

Hello there,

I am in the process of saving up for the Flightsuits Dark-Brown Goatskin, and I have been chatting with a sales Rep at Flightsuits....

I asked if they are STILL made to military standards, even though Mr. Marshall is not there anymore, they assured me that they are still made to military quality stitching, etc....(And, that includes the guarantee on their stitching I assume as well). I think I asked them about these jackets still being made to the military quality at least a dozen times, lol, since that was a biggie with me! And, they assured me that, yes, they are still made that way.

The Rep checked to see if they had my size on the rack, but they didn't have the size that I needed. Then I asked how long it would take for my jacket to be made and to arrive. I was pleased when she told me that it would only take "2-3 weeks tops."

If it helps, I was chatting with the Rep: Lindsay Draheim and I have found her to be very helpful and expedient in answering questions and e-mails. Thus far, their customer service has been great and friendly with fast responses....

Hope this helps!
Captain D

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:34 pm

Let's hope this is a harbinger of good things to return to FS. (I posted this because I rarely get to use the word 'harbinger' in a post very often.

(grins)) Regards. Michaelson

Lao Feng · Post by **Lao Feng** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:48 pm

Allow me to "Ditto" Captain D's comment about G&B customer service of late. The woman he mentioned is not the person with whom I have been dealing, but my recent experience has been extremely positive.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:05 pm

Sounds promising indeed.

Anyone had their jacket "made to fit"? - Or a different hide (I was thinking about horsehide)?

Thanks for the info so far. Much appreciated.

Regards,

Marc

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:11 pm

OK, these rumors are getting way out of hand. Having just visited Gibson & Barnes to pick up a donated Expedition for the Queen Mary Summit, I can assure to everyone that the quality of the hides and stiching are just like they used to be. All the patterns are there and their managment is always open to improving their product - not that there is anything more to improve. The stiching is top notch and military grade with a lifetime guarantee to the original owner.

Also, as far as supply or turn around time, well this happens almost every year, but G&B received another huge Airline leather jacket order that needs to be processed by the end of the year. It's thousands of jackets. Almost every year this has happened since I have been going to G&B (~2001).

On the other topic, Dave Marshall is still with G&B. He is strictly working on patches. However, if there are any issues in regards to customer service feel free to drop me a line. The VP of sales will handle any CS issues. That's a promise he gave to me.

Hope this helps.

-Sergei
p.s. BTW I am in no way affiliated with G&B. Nor do I receive or have received ANY discount from G&B. They just happen to be in the same city I live. And I own several Wested's and jackets from G&B (Flightsuits).

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:28 pm

I'm glad to hear you've had good experiences with them lately, Sergei. I've read both positive and negative personal experience reports, so these have been more than just 'out of hand rumors'. Considering Gibson and Barnes past history, maybe these folks just experienced a bump in the transition in the front office, but rest assured, their bad experiences were as real for them as what you've reported in a good one, so they're more than just rumors. Regards. Michaelson

p.s. btw, I have absolutely NO axe to grind with FS. I was involved in the creation of the Expedition. I'm just repeating what I've been told (and personally experienced in a phone call I was involved with a couple of months ago with a customer service rep) by folks who have recently been trying to deal with the company, and it's been pretty dicey in recent months.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:47 pm

No.noo.. Not trying to slam you Michaelson. There were some bumps in the road due to management changes and dealing with the growth of the company. The owner has been going through some health problems and needed to bring in his son. That and all the jacket orders from the airline companies required some adjustment to their operations. Plus dealing with San Diego and California governments have been a nightmare since they are not very friendly to businesses. So I apologize to you and those that were offended by past bad experiences. But it is my understanding that everything is back on track. They still love us fans, which is evidenced by their contribution to the QM summit this year (3 years in a row).

-S

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:51 pm

Glad to hear it. Regards. Michaelson

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:32 pm

Yes, great news indeed. I had heard the rumor of Mr. Marshall's demise as well. Glad he's still there!

If you see him, tell him ol' Minnesota says Hi!

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:15 pm

...ah, it's being discussed here!

Captain D, it would seem it depends on who you talk with since just today I was told there was an 8 to 10 week delay on Expeditions (I imagine whoever wants to order one will find out quickly enough on their own who is correct - then again, maybe not.)

It also depends on what you lump into customer service. I regard it a lapse in service when just prior to the “adjustment to their operations,” there are people that laid out extra cash to have a made-to-measure jacket with certain options available at the time and were later told they (G&B) could no longer honor the guarantees under which the merchandise was purchased nor the ‘terms and conditions’ that STILL remain on their antiquated site solely because of the acquisition of those airline contracts.

Perhaps these “rumors” would not get so out of hand if their reps where not just given information by management on a ‘need-to-know’ basis to pass along to us customers. This of course is not the fault of those representatives or Dave Marshall, but is more indicative of the lack of a clear direction by the owner(s) as to where the company is headed. Of course it’s just my opinion (maybe a few others from whom I’ve heard from) but things are not “back on track” when you STILL cannot order made-to-measure jackets. Ordering a jacket in the hide of your choice OR merely ordering a 42R with a 44 sleeve is NOW considered one of those special orders and thus not allowed where it had been in the past; not to mention ALL of the other options listed on page 21 of their catalog that they no longer offer. I would also mention that “military quality stitching” means nothing to the person who cannot order a jacket that may require custom adjustments to acquire the proper fit as it appears only Wested does now, and FS once did.

And, if indeed they “still love us fans,” why do I get the feeling they are practicing their version of ‘tough love’ particularly on those unable to attend the QM summits and witness their generous contributions first hand.

It still does not seem to me like G&B is a harbinger (I heard just recently somewhere that’s an actual word) of good things as yet, IMHO.

BTW: Whatever happened to Dorothy, Ehren, Ryan, Courtney...; and wasn’t Dave Marshall once gone... before he returned that is. For awhile there I could have sworn G&B had become a virtual abattoir (slaughterhouse, ...howz that for a word seldom used) with some loyal employee’s being steamrolled right under those “bumps in the road”. ...well, maybe it's a good thing not to deal with one rep for too long.

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:11 pm

I agree that it does depend on who you may talk to....

Lindsay said 2-3 weeks tops for a delivery time. However, I happened to call back to simply double-check something, and ended up chatting with some gentleman who said that my jacket wouldn't arrive until the end of December/early January

.....So, I agree, it DOES depend on who you may talk to....

Also, I happened to mention the jacket being made in the post-mods (just in case they could make sure that the jacket was made with the latest pocket placement configuration, etc...) and they said that no, they cannot make the jacket as "made-to-measure." No special features....they stick to the just one pattern and that's it. But, yes, the pocket placements are all correct and made to the post-mods....So, that is definitely good news! But, it didn't sound that they are too keen on altering the jacket like Wested can do for their customers, just in case there are those who want to "custom make" their Expedition jacket....

Not taking any sides anywhere, just relaying what I was told....

In Kindest Regards,
Captain D

p.s- It is good to see you back posting again here at C.O.W Sergei, please don't be a stranger round' these parts my friend!

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:35 am

Captain D wrote:I agree that it does depend on who you may talk to....

p.s- It is good to see you back posting again here at C.O.W Sergei, please don't be a stranger round' these parts my friend!

It's really, really hard... when you read the post right above you. Take care... It's this kind of stuff that I need to remind myself, it's just not worth it. I mean the @#$% thrown at vendors,.. never mind... I am sure I will get my in-box full of 100 messages

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:28 am

Sergei wrote:
Captain D wrote:I agree that it does depend on who you may talk to....

p.s- It is good to see you back posting again here at C.O.W Sergei, please don't be a stranger round' these parts my friend!
It's really, really hard... when you read the post right above you. Take care... It's this kind of stuff that I need to remind myself, it's just not worth it. I mean the @#$% thrown at vendors,.. never mind... I am sure I will get my in-box full of 100 messages

It's really, really hard for me to... although I suspect I'd be less missed. ;(

If you can point to one thing I said that’s not true (except for self-indulgent hyperbole about them dismissing every rep I dealt with within a 6 week period getting one jacket made since it’s really has nothing to do with service and isn’t really my business what they do with employees), I’d be willing to listen to the “vendor’s” side, of course only if you only THOUGHT it was worth it.

I still have your PM’s from that period when this happened and I did take your advice when you seemed to be whistling a different tune, but not to offend you personally, I kept them to myself, as well as the names of others, but I don’t really have to take that slur about “@#$% thrown at vendors” since I have always supported them, as well as this site. I also have the emails from G&B confirming most of what I’ve said when pieced together about their unwillingness to make further adjustments on a jacket I laid out an extra $125 plus to have made the way I paid for. They merely discontinued that policy! And if that weren’t enough, I have a friend who also went through the same thing. So if the truth is too hard to take, or you are to sensitive to reply in a sincere way to any criticism directed at a vendor that I have more than supported in my prior posts (search through them carefully,) and through various purchases, then I suppose there’s an end to that topic. There are also other’s who experience those “bumps in the road” and what happened and I honestly cannot understand how you can now deny anything I said about made-to-measure orders if you ARE NOT affiliated with them in anyway - an assertion by the way that I really do believe since otherwise you WOULD know exactly what had taken place. Also, you never have, and never will receive an “inbox full of 100 messages” from me, that’s why I’ll post my reply here. I fully realize that I may be cutting my own throat going against the powers that be here, if so, so be it. I never lie, and this is probably the worst thing you could have implied especially after some of what I said has already been confirmed or admitted to already.

Thought better of you. ...but since “it’s just not worth it,’ going through any specifics I recounted, then I guess there REALLY is no point warning others about any difficulties they may incur; and that my friend is just about as angry as I’ve ever gotten in all my time on this forum, but I’ll get over it. I believe your heart is in the right place, but you are simply turning a blind eye to the problems I’ve pointed out.

...well, I’ve run out of steam now, but I guess that’s why the truth is so hard too come by when folks who do not know, or are unwilling to know the facts of certain situations merely dismiss them as trash talk.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:28 pm

Rixter,
Yes, I did get involved with your friend. To the point where I gave you the VP of sales phone number. I believe he never called the VP.

If you look at the initial thread - way, way at the top. That is what I was answering. The quality is the same. I just saw a jacket less than two weeks ago. And yes, due to a very large airline order the expeditions as well as other jackets are delayed until the end of the year.

Be honest. The topic strayed way off. This is not the first time you and me were not on the same page.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:30 pm

I held a customer service job for close to ten years so I was well, well trained and experienced on how to handle customers on the phone and I can tell you without prejudice that their customer service is more than pitiful.
I called with a request and was told no by the rep so I asked for a manager who was 'out'. I was promissed a return call and 2 weeks later, it hadn't yet come. I called back, the manager was still out but I was told to repeat my story. Another return call promised the next day. Two weeks later, it hadn't come. I call back, livid this time, and was forced to repeat the story to a standard customer service rep who then said they couldn't help me and I'd have to speak to a manager. Like I didn't already know this. Can you imagine, the manager wasn't there, yet again.

I was promised a return call and it finally did come that day, an hour after they said it would so I had to sit and wait for the guy. Once again I had to tell the WHOLE story all over again only to be told NO by the management when by that time and after all of that I most definitely should have gotten what I wanted since it was just too simple a task for them. I then told him what I seriously thougfht of the company without holding back my frustration and curses and told him I'd be more than happy to let as many people as I could about my situation in hopes of persueding them to not do any business with FS and what they like to call a customer service dept.
I'd have to say that there doesn't seem to be anything wrong at all with the product but from a customer service standpoint, they dropped the ball in almost every way possible, aside from being polite, which they were. Only being polite doen't change anything. Their customer service ***** and ***** BAD!!! You can count up all the good experiences but when stuff like this happens, you cannot overlook it and try to dismiss it in any way. Good is good, but this stinks!

Serg,
With all due respect, I did speak to the VP and he was the one who was blowing me off for a month. No excuses there. This is not just @#$% thrown at vendors, this is a reality. If you speak to the VP personally, please tell him to return his messages. That would be a good start to better customer service. I know you have a personal affiliation or liking of FS and their people but you have to be nonjudgemental and listen to what people are telling you about their experiences. It's not just a bunch of stories, it's about real experiences that cannot be overlooked.

p.s. A note to all mods, I'm not angry as I type this. This is not turning into some sort of war/fight/arguement or anything as a great many posts are mistaken to be. Please let this thread survive. I think it to be pretty important for all of us to see. Both the good and the bad.

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:34 pm

agent5,
Do you mind if I ask what was the nature of your request to them? I am assuming it was reasonable as that you are a reasonable fellow and I am assuming that it was within their power to grant.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:48 pm

It's became not so much about what I was calling about as it turned into their lack of customer service. I should have mentioned that several years ago I did call them with a request which was granted immediately. I paid them for services and was happy. Now I can't even get a return call after a month. Nomatter what anyone is calling for, it's just bad business.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:18 pm

OK. Just because I stick up for vendors, doesn't mean I have something in it for me. I like choices and competition. I would like to remind everyone that I own several Wested jackets (plural) and several Flight Suit (plural) jackets (mostly military). Just like most of my other gear, I tend to go across the board if there is choice. That's the tone I was hearing was that I had more than a "personal affiliation". I don't have one in this particular case, or with any other vendor.

I will print down a few of these post that are representative and bring it to the attention of the owner. That's the best I can do. It's not my business, but just a concerned supporter. The ball is in their court. And you know, I would do that for any other vendor. My position on this has been consistent. You can read my previous posts on this subject.

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:19 pm

Sergei,

It wasn't my intention to upset you, I simply wanted to welcome you since I haven't seen your posts for awhile....

And yes, I agree with Michaelson that it is good for customers to have the right and the freedom to state how their experiences were/are with a particular vendor. People do it with all the vendors (USWings and Wested), FS should be no exception.

All I was simply doing was mentioning that I AM having good quality customer service with speedy responses, and that everything is going smoothly. The only thing that through me through a loop was that I happened to chat with another gentleman, who told me another time that my jacket would arrive, other than what I was told at first by someone else. But, no biggie, I knew that it would come whenever it was ready

. Also, they told me that they cannot alter the pattern (special requests).....

All that I am doing is simply exercising the freedom to state how my experiences are thus far. I am not taking sides with anyone, simply stating what they are telling me.

Again, I apologize if I had caused an uproar for mentioning something that they told me....But, I just hope that everyone here can be all good with each other again.

Kindest Regards,
Captain D

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:58 pm

Serg,
It wasn't my intention to misrepresent what I thought was your affiliation with FS. I was under the impression that you were a close, valued customer of theirs who'd been to the factory and were on more of a personal level than most others were. I don't think at all that any of my comments implied that if you stick up for any vendor that there is something in it for you.
I'd say that I have an affiliation with Optimo because I go in there fairly often and they treat me slightly different than the average customer who's in to buy a hat. I simply assumed you it was the same for you at FS. I know you always spoke very highly of FS in many ways and you'd been there so that is what lead me to that assumption. I meant nothing more than that. If my assumption was inaccurate, then I apologize. You were always a straight shooter and I doubt that'll change.

In my best Indy tone, if I offended you, then I am truely sorry.

Now. Don't forget to eat your sweet potatoes and have a good turkey day.

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:04 pm

I agree! This is turning into a real comedy of errors. I thought you, Serg, were directing your reply to the “post right above” the one by Captain D, which unless any posts were lost, is me, not to the initial post “way on top” or to the one by the good Captain D who caused no “uproar” that I can tell.

But for the life of me I can’t figure out which of us has been engaged in this unseemly practice of “@#$% throw(ing) at vendors.” I know I made no mention of shoddy workmanship or the lack of quality of their jackets, although I do hope that it does not deteriorate to that - an honest concern considering ALL the other changes that have taken place since I first ordered from them way back when..., on the contrary, I’ve had no problem with the quality of the hides or their “military stitching” whatsoever. That is why I’ve continued to purchase jackets from them.

The main thing I was confirming is that I was told more than once in the past month that there were indeed “loooong delivery times” for jackets I was considering that are not currently being warehoused since it appeared people had been told different things by different reps, and, which question was addressed to me specifically in the related thread ‘Flightsuits Dark-Brown Goat’. A rumor that I felt needed clearing up.

Additionally, in that other thread, I relayed some good news and repeated what I was told by G&B customer service that they will be reassessing their current policy as to custom made-to-measure jackets and special options (which I mostly made use of for their military jackets) early next year. Particularly good news for me, and something I thought worth sharing since I require a longer sleeve length which I was recently told has been lumped into the category of a custom jacket which they currently no longer offer. Possibly more rumors by one of the G&B reps???

So finally, we need a patsy, and since I don’t see any G&B representatives on this forum to defend themselves, I think we should just all blame those reps, ...yeah, that’s it - we’ll blame it on misinformed reps telling everyone something different and starting all of these rumors and let's all agree to put an end to it and just let this thread fade into the sunset and hope everybody has a Happy Thanksgiving!

BTW: And so as not to be left out in the cold, I also apologize for whatever I need to apologize for, ...and I can't help feeling it's something - sincerely!

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:11 pm

Well .... I am apologizing too. I wanted to keep to the original topic. But it seems that people seem to think I was directly attacking them. Man, what a sensitive bunch we have here - present company included. But I do apologize for the words, "@#$%" and "rumors". That caused the lightening bolts and I take responsibility for the poor wording.

However the off-topic points are well taken. I will honestly confront G&B about the other issues that came to light with this thread (re: poor customer service & policy changes on their jacket customizations). What happened earlier this year was quite huge in personnel, especially the ones with customer service skills.

The other disturbing issue was the policy change on the customizations. I won't mention names, but I think a few fans really spoiled it for the rest of us. I saw a six page letter (they didin't show me the name, so the reader shouldn't email me because I honestly don't know), that had detailed drawings, diagrams, screen grabs describing their version of screen accuracy. Let's say, it left a rather disturbing impression on our obsession - some MUCH more than others. But at the time, it really painted a poor picture on continuing with customization given their gracious "return policy" - which was sometimes abused. Any reasonable person can conclude that the gravy chain would eventually cease. You ever wonder how things make it to the "clearance rack"? I know that that is their campaign to eliminate or shrink.

But honestly people, the quality of the hides, the quality of the patterns and the quality of stiching is still superb. Maybe, I am just more humble in my expectations. When I do walk through the doors there, no one knows who I am and that's OK. I am just a regular Joe. In the past I never had to deal with the owners, since Dave was quite the liason, our proxy. Unfortunately, no more proxy and things like customer service will fall on the floor. Which is a shame, and no excuse. Hopefully, they will take this criticism constructively.

Happy Holidays...and take care.
-Sergei

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:56 pm

I'm happy that everything is all cool with everyone

!

We're all good friends gathered by a common interest in Indiana Jones, especially the jacket

, so let's enjoy the many things we have to be thankful for this year and raise our glasses up to a toast....Cheers!!!

High Regards,
Captain D

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:31 pm

Sergei wrote: Man, what a sensitive bunch we have here...

Nooooo, really? Say it ain't so.

Sergei wrote: The other disturbing issue was the policy change on the customizations. I won't mention names, but I think a few fans really spoiled it for the rest of us. I saw a six page letter (they didin't show me the name, so the reader shouldn't email me because I honestly don't know), that had detailed drawings, diagrams, screen grabs describing their version of screen accuracy. Let's say, it left a rather disturbing impression on our obsession - some MUCH more than others. But at the time, it really painted a poor picture on continuing with customization given their gracious "return policy" - which was sometimes abused. Any reasonable person can conclude that the gravy chain would eventually cease. You ever wonder how things make it to the "clearance rack"? I know that that is their campaign to eliminate or shrink.

This kind of policy and generosity abuse all in the name of a movie jacket is disgusting. The parties involved should be ashamed.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:37 pm

This was the kind of 'abuse' that _ took when the original Expedition jacket concept was in process....the '6 page letter' type of thinking being sent PM and email message after message. Now you can possibily understand why he has become as scarce as he has in the Indy jacket circles. I received a few myself, but NOTHING like HE received!

To take it to the jacket makers themselves!? Sad. Regards. Michaelson

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:14 pm

...well I’ve been lured back, but then it is one of my favoirte topics right now.

Personally I have never requested anything on their Expeditions (and I own two) other than a larger sleeve length on one of their ‘Regular’ size jackets since their sleeves seem to run a bit short on me in which, by the way, they use to do (hardly major customization) not that anyone’s said I’ve done otherwise. I also had never heard anything about people sending “six page letter(s)” or “detailed drawings, diagrams, screen grabs” but then it wouldn’t surprise me if there we’re some folks who did. ...there’s always one or two in the crowd. I like their Expedition just fine the way it is, I just want to know that I can depend on getting ‘minor’ alterations if necessary (not customization) for which there is a charge anyway, and maybe the choice of a different hide then currently being offered. As a matter of fact, I concluded from what I had been told by several people that G&B merely didn’t have the manpower/time to do custom-tailoring because of their current cooperate accounts. Hence their frantic attempt of seeking out more seamstresses, et. al. in the newspapers and such.

It also seems to me that if G&B wanted to discourage any such abuse as described to their policy concerning the Expedition, they could have easily done so by stating it in the form of a disclaimer prominently located on THAT jacket’s page OR just nixing the return policy on THOSE made-to-measure jackets except for returns involving ‘minor alterations’. A naively simple solution perhaps, but at least the customer would be aware that there MIGHT be a problem if they engaged in that type of “abuse” described. I furthermore would have, again, naively assumed that adding an extra $125+ to an already expensive ($400+) jacket to have a special pattern cut, unlike, say Wested, would have discouraged that type of “abuse,” but apparently not from what I’ve just read.

In actuality, my problem with them is that they cut this policy on ALL jackets. Since I’m really more concerned here with the ‘military style’ jackets and the page of options listed in G&B’s catalog (which also require an additional cost for EACH option added) I find it difficult to come to any other conclusion then the one I was left with by their own reps as to the reason they discontinued their made-to-measure/options policy, and it had nothing to do with what ever abuses they experienced with the Expedition line of jackets.

If I wouldn’t feel so strongly that they are an excellent vendor that makes excellent jackets in every respect, and that merely need to get back to what in my opinion earned them that reputation, I wouldn’t bother blistering my typing fingers hammering these replies out.

lowmileage · Post by **lowmileage** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:10 pm

Axel wrote:Marc,

I bought a dark brown goat Expo back in June of this year. My jacket was a clearance item so I had it in a week. It was a made-to-measure 40R torso with 40 short sleeves. The fit and quality were perfect. I don't have any experience with older Expos, but I did have a Cooper (U.S. Wings) cowhide Indy jacket for many years. I much prefer the Expo.

I wonder what delivery time they are quoting for new orders?

Axel

Axel,
If you could do me a favor, please measure the arm length on your jacket from the shoulder seam. Mine is about 22". I bought a 40R clearance and the sleeve length appears too short. It was not described as being a short. Thanks, Fred

Axel · Post by **Axel** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:10 am

lowmileage,

I measured my jacket from the outer shoulder seam to the end of the sleeve. It measures 22.5". It sounds like your jacket has 40 short sleeves.

Hopefully, G&B will confirm this.

Axel

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:53 am

Sad Sad Sad, it is stuff like this that made me leave COW over a year ago, only to come back and start posting more recently. I had hoped during my absence that these sort of dealings had ended. It appears I was wrong in that hope. I stand by Sergei and his views...I guess there are some things that shall never change, the battle over the Indy Jacket looks to be one of them. Personally I am done debating which is better and so forth. Most of you know my views on the which is the most accurate Indy Jacket, I stand by it, simple as that. You can all believe what you want you believe, but I know what I know. Being here since 97/98, I have seen just about everything. The good times and the bad, there are those that have been here longer than I. I have learned a lot over the years from the real vets. in this hobby. They have made a lot smarter and wiser. Making a long story short, like I said, I know what I know, and that's all I need.

lowmileage · Post by **lowmileage** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:37 am

Axel wrote:lowmileage,

I measured my jacket from the outer shoulder seam to the end of the sleeve. It measures 22.5". It sounds like your jacket has 40 short sleeves.

Hopefully, G&B will confirm this.

Axel

Axel,
Quite the contrary - they said it wasn't a short and that it wasn't altered and that it was a standard 40R. I told them impossible because yesterday I was wearing a sweater instead of a shirt and while holding my arms to the side, you could see my watch on the wrist. They said I need a 40R body with long sleeves and it would cost another $50 something dollars for the custom fit. What a joke. Granted it was a Clearance item but the only remark was that it was "slightly blemished" . It they said it was a short, I obviously wouldn't have bought it. Another ideosyncrosy was that on the tag, it had $249 (the price tag) crossed out and $199 written in. When I asked them about that, she said she put the wrong tag on it??? See ya Flightsuits, you now join US Wings in the Do not buy from catagory. Peter, expect my call. And thanks Axel for taking the time for the measurement.
Fred

Axel · Post by **Axel** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:20 pm

lowmileage,

Sorry to hear about your bad experience with G&B. My jacket tag reads 40 Made-to-measure due to the shorter sleeves. Does yours say 40R?

Wested lists the sleeve (shoulder to cuff) length of their 40R as 24.25" which is much longer than what you measured on your Expo. Hopefully, someone will measure it at G&B and realize the error.

Good luck with your Wested,

Axel

lowmileage · Post by **lowmileage** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:18 am

Axel wrote:lowmileage,

Sorry to hear about your bad experience with G&B. My jacket tag reads 40 Made-to-measure due to the shorter sleeves. Does yours say 40R?

Wested lists the sleeve (shoulder to cuff) length of their 40R as 24.25" which is much longer than what you measured on your Expo. Hopefully, someone will measure it at G&B and realize the error.

Good luck with your Wested,

Axel

Hi Axel
Tag says 40R and the sleeves are 22". Measured them again this AM.
Regards, Fred