Revolutionary discoveries on the Indy fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:59 pm

I made some discoveries today, and although they may be known by a few of us, I think it was an eye opener. To start the story, I was organzing some vhs tapes today, and discovered a tape that our good friend Michaelson had sent me years ago. It was titled, A Walkthrough Lucas Warehouse. It is just a guy, walking through with a camcorder, filming the contents of the warehouse. 99.999 per cent of this tape is Star Wars stuff. But, we are shown the Indy outfit on a headless manikin, and then he shows us the inside of a hat, and Indy fedora. You know that oval HJ crest that came in some of the hats? Well, this one was a burgundy and gold lined crest, but it was not oval. It was 5 sided, resembling a house. This hat also sported a 1 3/4 ribbon, and was a tall hat, 6 inch open crown I would guess. On in the film, he walks to a cardboard box, and pulls out 4 brown fedoras with the IJ on the sweat. One was extremely straight sided, and guess what crest was in it? Give up?

It was the regular HJ crest that I have seen in pics of the outside of the old HJ shop. Not the burgundy crest, but the crest itself, that is the Hj crest. You know, the shield with the unicorn sitting on top. And, it looked to be either a dark royal blue, or black, with gold laced around the outside, and gold lettering. Now, another shocker. One hat had no ribbon, but you could tell, it too, was 1 3/4. The rest of the hats from that box, all sported 1 3/4 ribbons, and one looked just like the pic that Antiquities collector posted, and I immediately said, it was not a true hat because of the width of the ribbon. Too wide I said. Schwammy made the statement that he thought the original ribbon was 1 3/4. I disagreed. It appears I will have to eat my hat on this one, unless, Fords, hat had his ribbon changed out to the 1 1/2, which I seriously doubt. If anyone has the capability of extracting images from a vhs and then to us, it would be worth the trouble, and give much meat to a new discussion. I offer my apology to AC(at least I think it was him who owns the film hat), and don't mind saying I was wrong. If anyone has this tape, please view it and post your thoughts. Now, has anyone ever seen an HJ with the blue crest, or the pentagon crest? I know I have never seen one, until now. Also, one or two of these hats had the clear material over the crest, and some did not. I wonder which films these hats were used in? Now, if Indy's hat had the 1 3/4 ribbon, this changes everything. It also would mean the hats were taller than 5 1/2 inches, and would have to be in order to bring the hat into proportion. Fedora

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:18 pm

And, it looked to be either a dark royal blue, or black, with gold laced around the outside, and gold lettering

Remarkable discoveries! I've never seen this tape so I can't offer any further insight, but it's nice to know that those of us with a black HJ liner may, in fact, be as screen accurate as the white liners!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:19 pm

I was not clear. All of the liners were white, just the crest was a royal blue, or black. Sorry.

Fedora

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:46 pm

Very, VERY interesting discoveries! Now, some questions...

Did the guy on the tape happen to know which film each one of the hats appeared in?

How did you figure out that the ribbons were 1 3/4 inch? Did the guy on the tape say this, or measure them himself? Or could you just tell, based on their appearance?

How did the overall appearance of the hats (ribbon included) compare to the Smithsonian hat, or the fedora Ford wore at the DVD release?

I've always thought the 1 3/4 ribbon was too wide to be correct, as it looks too wide on my hats and my head is bigger than Ford's. But being wrong is always a possibility...and if I am, I'll be dining on my hat too...

-GCR

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:27 pm

Can you get pics off the tape?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:45 pm

Did the guy on the tape happen to know which film each one of the hats appeared in?

How did you figure out that the ribbons were 1 3/4 inch? Did the guy on the tape say this, or measure them himself? Or could you just tell, based on their appearance?

How did the overall appearance of the hats (ribbon included) compare to the Smithsonian hat, or the fedora Ford wore at the DVD release?

I've always thought the 1 3/4 ribbon was too wide to be correct, as it looks too wide on my hats and my head is bigger than Ford's. But being wrong is always a possibility...and if I am, I'll be dining on my hat too...

There was no talking on the tape, like he was sneaking to do it.

All that you could hear was the monotinous sound of his footsteps. And occassionally, talking in the background, like it was coming from another room.

The hat on the headless manikin, looked to be straight from the LC, one of the taller looking hats. Since, the guy is pulling the hats up close, you can get a better look at the ribbon, and the hat. What did it for me, was the way the bow looked. If you have made a few bows, from 1 1/2 and the 1 3/4, the 1 3/4 has a particular proportion to it that stands, out. Plus, the ribbon just looks to be 1 3/4. The pic of the hat that was posted here earlier in the year, looked identical to some of these hats, with the exception of the taper. It had the 1 3/4 ribbon too. A couple of the hats he pulled out of the box, looked short with the wider ribbon, but you could tell they has shrunk up some, but the sides were straight up. I need to go back and check out the style job on these hats, the ones from the box. I have always thought the ribbon to be 1 1/2, but in some scenes, you can pause the dvd, and the ribbon looks 1 3/4. Not many scenes, but I recall seeing this. The wider ribbon would fit, if you are in the camp believing the hats(some hats) were taller than 5 inches bashd(on the side) Take any pic from Raiders, and use the ribbon width as a determining factor in "pinched crown height" in the front. Most times, it looks to be 3 x the 1 1/2 ribbon width. Which is 4 1/2 inches at the front. That always has looked to short to me, on my own hats. But, if the ribbon was 1 3/4, then 3 x 1 3/4 would be 5 1/4, and that would be right on, if the hat was 6 inches open crown per Mr. Swales letter. Drop it to 5 and you get the heart shapes from the front. Now, with that being said, it is still hard for me to swallow. I don't know why.

On the 2nd question about the Smithsonian hat and Ford's hat, I dunno. The manikin hat was in the best shape, but it looked taller than what Ford wore at that deal. Same with the Smithsonian. The hats that he showed, 4 I think, from the box were really beat up, like they had been stomped on and then half heartedly reshaped. Hard to call. The ribbon width shocked me, but so did the two different crests. I bet these hats were from two different films. The first one with the pentagon crest, was from one film, the other 4 with the blue crest from another film. Now, which is which? I don't have a clue. Fedora

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:47 pm

I haven't seen an HJ with a pentagon crest, but my 1972 Poet (the one I pounced from a shag) has a dark blue HJ crest under a plastine oval. There is also the two letters by Richard Swales that state the movie hat was 1 1/2 inches. Swales would run out of the dark brown 1 1/2 inch ribbon from time to time and put on whatever ribbon he had at hand. The hat I got from Steve Ferguson had a one inch medium brown ribbon when I received it. But who know? I would like to see this tour of the archives myself.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:51 pm

I would like to see this tour of the archives myself.

Man, I sure hope some more folks have this tape so we can get some more opinions. This is killing me!

Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:56 pm

has a dark blue HJ crest under a plastine oval.

That is it Dakota. Now, some conjecture. If your 1972 hat had the blue crest under plasticine, this is identical to the ones filmed by this guy. Raiders was the first Indy film, and they may have been still using these. I recall someone saying once, that Swales admitted to doing this at times, just to use up stock. So this blue crest may have been the Raiders hat. We know that there is an oval in the LC hat-right? And hats bought after LC by us had the oval. That leaves the pentagon? TOD? I will say, that the jacket on the manikin looks like the TOD jacket, but I am not that well versed in the jackets. Also, the shirt on the manikin looks really silvery, not beige at all. Please, someone who has this tape.......call home.

Fedora

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:22 pm

Maybe the one with the pentagon wasn't an HJ. When I asked Swales about the '72 Poet, he said they were at 13 Old Burlington Street, having moved there in '65 from 38 New Bond, which is the address on my hat, so yes, they would do that. I know a few of the late '90s hats had a Bond Street address on the band and the 54 St. James Address on the Burgundy label.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:27 pm

Maybe the one with the pentagon wasn't an HJ.

It is an HJ. You can see the crest and the script. Fedora

Post by **Ken** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:01 pm

Is it possible there are differences between the main screen hats and those used in stunt sequences? Another point is as I understand it MK has seen Vic Armstrongs hat - how does that compare?

Ken

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:29 pm

I just watched the tape again, and I am sure all have the wider ribbon. I am thinking perhaps Ford's ribbon was changed out, with the other hats keeping the original ribbon. Most of the hats shown were really beat up, with some of the linings partially torn out. One had a close flying v bow, but the rest looked identical to the hat that was posted about here by the guy that I mentioned. Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:32 pm

So what's this mean for your hats, Fedora? Are you going to offer them with choice of crown height and ribbon width?! (Like you need any more suggestions, right?

) I'd never heard all of this before, so it's pretty surprising to me!

bink

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:35 pm

Upstairs there was a clothing rack with nothing but screen used Indy gear on it. Wouldn't mind having that. I wasn't impressed with their filling system, though. Heck, even I could just throw a bunch of stuff on the shelves.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:35 pm

Actually I have just sold a hat to a fellow fan and he requested the 1 3/4 ribbon. Since it was a tall hat, it actually looked good to me. I have 1 1/2 , 1 5/8 and 1 3/4 vintage ribbon, so your wish is my command.

Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:40 pm

WOOHOO!!!! $\:D/$

imPatiently waiting for you to open shop,

bink

Shawnkara · Post by **Shawnkara** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:08 am

#### IT!!!!!! I HAD that Lucas archives walk-through :evil: I had bought a set of bootlegged Star Wars DVD's on #### a couple months back. That walk-through was on the bonus disc!! I didn't watch it all that close, I missed the Indy stuff. I could have gotten screen grabs, but I sold the set :evil: I don't suppose anyone else here has it?

Shawnkara · Post by **Shawnkara** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:11 am

By the way, that bonus disc is sometimes sold by itself. It comes with the SW Orignal (not special edition) bootleg set. It might be going cheap, now that the offical set is out.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:56 am

Shawnkara wrote:#### IT!!!!!! I HAD that Lucas archives walk-through :evil: I had bought a set of bootlegged Star Wars DVD's on #### a couple months back. That walk-through was on the bonus disc!! I didn't watch it all that close, I missed the Indy stuff. I could have gotten screen grabs, but I sold the set :evil: I don't suppose anyone else here has it?

So, does that mean the walkthrough is included on the bonus DVD in the official SW box, or on the bootleg version only?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:19 am

SJ, I don't think the walkthrough is of the video quality that they would ever include as a tour on an authorized release. If you ever see this video, you will know what I am talking about.

There is one part that I think is funny when he is filming with his camcorder and trips while he is walking and filming. Not a professional documentary. Just a dude with a camcorder walking through a warehouse picking stuff up off of shelves and out of boxes.

Most people would not be interested in seeing it. But we are amazed when we view a whole warehouse of props and costumes from the Indiana Jones and Star Wars movies just sitting there on shelves and in boxes. I wouldn't mind winning a five minute shopping spree in that place.

Flattery · Post by **Flattery** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:53 pm

There is one part that I think is funny when he is filming with his camcorder and trips while he is walking and filming. Not a professional documentary. Just a dude with a camcorder walking through a warehouse picking stuff up off of shelves and out of boxes.

I wonder if they based the warehouse scene at the end of Raiders on the LucasFilm archives...

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:20 pm

Very interesting. I think that 1 5/8" seems to be about the ideal Raiders ribbon width. Austin Powers thinks so too. But 1 3/4" is certainly possible. I of course have not seen this video. I wonder if the guy who made it got caght when it showed up on bootleg Star Wars material? At any rate, I am very please to hear that you have vintage ribbon, as this is a very important element in the Raiders hat. New ribbon has too much synthetic material and thus is too shiny. The different ribbon widths means that the Fedora fedora will indeed be the ULTIMATE! And affordable too!

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:25 pm

The fellow has not worked for Lucasfilm for years, I've been told, so no problems there, though I am interested in how this tape ended up on a bootleg DVD set. Thanks for that tidbit of information, Shawnkara. I find that more than just a little disappointing, and will curail any further dubs from MY collection. Seems folks are taking original material and making a profit off other folks past work. Well, just to alert others who I have worked with in years past...the well has just gone dry, with the exception of a rare few that I will continue to support.

The tape was made around 1991 or 92 by request of a member here, just to fill in that blank. Regards. Michaelson

Shawnkara · Post by **Shawnkara** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:27 pm

Michaelson,
I don't know

With the more detailed descriptions of that video that are now posted, maybe it's NOT the same thing. This thing was a little more sophisicated than just one guy with a camcorder. There was clearly one guy hosting and presenting the props and at least one guy on a camera. From Fedora's inital post it sounded like the same thing. But what I had wasn't as crudely done as this sounds.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:30 pm

That's a different scenario. The tape we're talking about IS a fellow who worked at the warehouse at that time who was by himself, just wandering around the warehouse with a camcorder for 20 minutes or more during his work shift, taping what ever he walked past. Must be a completely different thing then. Interesting. First I've heard of it. Regards. Michaelson

antiquity collector · Post by **antiquity collector** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:52 pm

If you go to the Indygear Main page, look at the "HOLD ON" pic at the bottom. That is a 1 3/4" ribbon.

The Cairo ribbon looks to be 1 1/2. Some of the Well of Souls shots have 1 3/4. Look closely.

AC

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:24 pm

It is an HJ. You can see the crest and the script. Fedora

Ok, after viewing it 500 times or so,

you can't see the crest(shield with unicorn) on the pentagon HJ, just the words in scipt Herbert Johnson. Also, there seems to be no "IJ" on the sweat like the other hats shown on this film. I think all may be LC fedoras. I dunno. The last 4 are in such bad shape,dirty, with the crowns pushed down into some of the hats. All of these hats out of the box, look really short, squatty looking. I am still curious about the pentagon HJ logo. I have never seen one prior. Fedora

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:57 am

Our new friend from France posted some pics of a 'pentagon-crested' HJ that might be interesting...

http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9647

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:07 pm

Fedora wrote: We know that there is an oval in the LC hat-right? And hats bought after LC by us had the oval. Fedora

I was just looking at LC last night. In the scene where Indy just avoids going over the cliff on the tank, his hat rolls over to him after he crawled back up to safety. His hat rolls across the screen on it's brim and the inside of the hat is pointed towards the camera. I went frame by frame through this section and all I could see was a white liner. I didn't see any crest or an oval.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:10 pm

I have an HJ that just has "Herbert Johnson" written in gold in the liner. So, it could have been one of those.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:14 pm

Pyro,

I was thinking it very well good have been. That's what the liner on my new HJ looks like.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:18 am

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Pyro,

I was thinking it very well good have been. That's what the liner on my new HJ looks like.

AND.....if you slow mo right as the hat comes off his head while he's on the tank. There's, I think, one frame where you get a blurry shot of the inside liner and there's no red crest. I may just be wishful thinking but I think I just see gold lettering in there.

And....take a look at how tapered and small the hat is that rolls towards Indy. I figured they had to make it like that to get it to roll right. It almost looks too small for him to wear.

Pyro

Post by **Mike** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:29 pm

While I haven't seen the video being touted here yet... I'm thinking a trip down to Bufflehead's may be in order... the video is definitely different from the tour video accompanying the bootleg DVDs. Those DVDs are off of the laserdisc versions of the films and the archives tour his hosted by Don Bies, the droid wrangler and controller of R2 in the new films.

Mike

MigMan · Post by **MigMan** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:55 pm

I have a copy of the SW bootlend DVD at home. I am looking forward to watching it tonight and see what I can find. On another note this is my first post here. I have been a member of the RPF for a year or two and several of the members there recommended I join here since I was wanting to start my Indy costume. I thank all of you as there is a wealth of knowledge here. I am looking forward to finishing up my Indy costume with more accurate gear.

Carlos

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:58 pm

Glad you could join us, Carlos! High regards. Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:36 pm

may just be wishful thinking but I think I just see gold lettering in there.

I have seen that too. I think it was a cursive lettering, which is different than the current HJ coming out of the UK. So far on the older HJs, you see the regular black, or blue hatters crest with the horned dog, and these were in abundance in the Lucas Walkthrough. Then, there is the pentangle burgurgy crest on the hat that is on the mannikin wearing the Indy outfit.(and used on Anjali's, 80's HJ) We have all seen the gold writing in one of the films, and also what we think is the burgundy oval, in one of the films. After reviewing that film recently, I came to the conclusion that it may have been a pentagle, but can't say for sure. We also have the oval crest that was used in later hats, which reminds me of the Borsalino crest in alot of ways. Perhaps these bodies were from Borsalino and they used the Borasalino crest with the Hj name on it. Makes sense, but only conjecture. Is this enough info to guess at what was in the Raider's hats? Personally, I don't think any of the hats shown in that walkthrough were from the first film. Fedora

ANJALI · Post by **ANJALI** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:09 pm

Some pictures from France :
First "logo" (1986):

Second logo(1988):

Regards
Anjali

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:54 pm

Thanks. Can you date the blue crest? I saw both of these in the walkthrough film. Fedora

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:19 pm

Thanks. Can you date the blue crest?

That is sick. Besides, he may be happily married.

Post by **Mike** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:22 pm

Migman, welcome aboard... but you won't find any Indy related props on the DVD tour. It's strictly Star Wars.

Mike

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:37 pm

Fedora wrote:
may just be wishful thinking but I think I just see gold lettering in there.

I have seen that too. I think it was a cursive lettering, which is different than the current HJ coming out of the UK. Fedora

That confused me. My new HJ has "Herbert Johnson" written in cursive in gold.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:00 pm

Mike wrote:While I haven't seen the video being touted here yet... I'm thinking a trip down to Bufflehead's may be in order... the video is definitely different from the tour video accompanying the bootleg DVDs. Those DVDs are off of the laserdisc versions of the films and the archives tour his hosted by Don Bies, the droid wrangler and controller of R2 in the new films.

Mike

I'm moving! 8-[

Hey Bink, do you have an extra room I could crash in for a while?

I have all the laserdisc versions. I didn't even remember that I had that. Ran downstairs to check and there it was. You say that there is no Indy stuff on it? Hey, I may have to pull it out and watch it again, anyway.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:36 pm

That confused me. My new HJ has "Herbert Johnson" written in cursive in gold.

I made a mistake. The older script was larger than the new script, but both are in cursive. Fedora

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:32 am

After seeing the burgundy pentagon, I looked again at the "Meeting Donavon" scene, and y'know, that could be a pentagon there, and not the oval we all thought it was. Can anybody get a real sharp freeze on that?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:33 am

I think that we just assumed it was the oval, since the hats bought from Swales had the oval crest. I have looked at that scene, and it could be a pentangle. Hard to call. Anjali bought his Hj in 86, and it came with the pentangle. One of the hats in the walkthrough was the pentangle, so it seems like this was used. It seems that I recall the HJ you won the bid on Dakota had the oval with the "IJ" on the sweat. Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:52 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote: Hey Bink, do you have an extra room I could crash in for a while?

Sure, but you'd have to share it with the cats.

bink