Getting to the bottom of Wells Lamont

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:59 am

I'm opening a new thread from this one
http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9825 because I thought this might get buried.

I called the Wells Lamont corporate office today and spoke to a nice customer service rep who was willing to help me out in my quest to get down to the bottom of exactly which gloves Indy wore in Raiders.
For a long time I though, as was the concensus here, that it was the 1123's that were the glove. After getting a pair and looking over the dvd I could easily see they were not. However, after looking over my 1130's I saw that they were.
I told the woman at Wells Lamont that I was part of a worldwide group of Indy enthusiasts and that we wanted to get down to the bottom of the glove debate. I also told her that most of us buy their product to get the closest glove available so I sort of knew what I was talking about when it came to these gloves in particular.
She did tell me that they have indeed stopped production of the 1130 without the reinforced palm and that they did incorporate some slight design changes last year.
I asked her if she knew when the 1130 or the style which eventually became the #1130 went into production. She didn't know off-hand but said she would ask the guy in charge who probably would. She explained that even though it may now be the 1130 it probably was another number at some point and that the design stayed the same as the numbers changed.
She then asked if it was possible to send her some screen caps of Indys gloves from Raiders. I told I was more than happy to do that and that we all were interested in finding out the actual history of what is now the 1130 and how it may have been, or most likely was the glove used in Raiders. I dropped her the info on Paramount and their contract with Wells Lamont and Midwest so she could ask about that as well.
I also talked with her about the color coding on the cuff and she did say that some of the sizes are color coded but some are not.
Lastly, I asked her if she had a list of places that sold their product. She said the list was large and that they didn't have one together but that any of the industrial gloves would only be sold to companies in bulk and not to retail stores such as Target, Wal Mart, etc.
I got together the screen caps and I'm going to send them off later. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this whole debate and finally put a solid # to the glove once and for all. She was nice about the whole thing and listened very well. She did say that based on the screen caps she'd find the best glove they have to match it and try her best to get the info I was asking about.
Hopefully she'll turn something up.

Got Maul · Post by **Got Maul** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:03 am

wow ! You got someone to cooperate fully ! Good work man, couldn't have done it better myself ! You can also tell her that in being in a different Illinois Wal Mart everyday, they have done a good job of completely revamping and updating their WLamont displays. That's good news for WL, but bad news for us...I went to a DeKalb Walmart today and found NOTHING. Can you believe it ? fxxxgxn DeKalb !

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:19 am

Fantastic job, 5! Fantastic!

When you do eventually get around to talking about which is the closest glove NOW, ask what drives them to make the changes they do. If the changes are easy or minor and they don't need 100,000 committed orders, maybe the old glove could be resurrected if it's close to something else still around!

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:39 am

Oh yeah. I almost forgot. I noticed tonight while getting the screen caps that when Indy turns over and says, "Why'd it have to be snakes?", you can easily see the word LARGE printed right above the wrist on the glove.
I wonder if this used to be a common way for them to mark the sizes instead of tags. I'll ask her tomorrow.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:46 am

agent5 wrote:...you can easily see the word LARGE printed right above the wrist on the glove.

Doesn't Todd have that on his website as well? I thought it was something that he was having put on the gloves to match that screen grab. (Or am I thinking of someone else's sight?)

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:56 am

I don't recall reading that on Todd's site but I also just noticed something else while blowing up a screen grab, the Wells Lamont logo in the exact spot it is on my 1130's.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:05 am

Yep, here it is on this page:
http://www.toddscostumes.com/indy/indy_gloves.htm

5. The word "LARGE" printed on the inside wrist. Shown below.

Hey, it even nailed your number. It was calling for you!

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:07 am

agent5 wrote:...the Wells Lamont logo in the exact spot it is on my 1130's.

Where, on the back of the left cuff out on the outer (ulner) corner? If you see it there, I wonder why Todd mentions on his page trying to hide it...hunh.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:12 am

You were correct, sir.

I like that page and all the attention to detail. I guess I didn't pay attention to the LARGE thing because you can't really make it out in that cap.

Redbeard · Post by **Redbeard** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:13 am

Good Job! I can't wait for the results!!!!

Regards,
Redbeard

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:17 am

agent5 wrote:You were correct, sir.

I like that page and all the attention to detail. I guess I didn't pay attention to the LARGE thing because you can't really make it out in that cap.

I can't tell which of you is closer to excellence in your attention to detail. Carry on, Maestro.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:16 pm

Great news, Agent 5! I would like to get to the bottom of this mystery as well. I'm glad you have found a sympathetic person at WL to give you some info. If you find a better model than the one I have, I will be GLAD to put up the minimum order. If they don't need modification, the final price to y'all should be the same as K-mart, etc. I'd LOVE to not have to replace the binding on all of those gloves.

BTW, the pictures on their website are not always accurate. They change things and don't bother to renew their pictures. I guess they don't think anyone cares.

Where's the logo on the movie gloves? How could I miss that?

Todd

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:26 pm

Regarding the 'L' markings...I know this was their standard practice in the mid 80's when I used to order their gloves in bulk for use in our video studio. Good work, agent5! You finally broke down the door. In the past, they have always stonewalled anyone asking these questions, as they thought you may be a rival company trying to dig up shipping information on their customers, and after the first couple of questions, they slammed the door. Looking forward to your report!! High regards. Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:03 pm

I think part of her willingness to cooperate was that I told her I was part of a global group of people who were not only trying to get down to the bottom of the history of the glove for our hobby purposes, but also that the majority of gearheads also purchase their product, which is no exaggeration.
I sent her quite a few screen caps today. The best I could find. She was well aware of the style changes of the 1130 over the past couple of years so I know she knew what she was talking about. Hopefully she'll be willing to answer all the questions I've put forward.

lonerthx · Post by **lonerthx** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:31 pm

Here's my post from last year with a clearer cap, I thought it said Lamont as first http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

In the first you can see what looks like the word Lamont at the wrist. The stitching here is identical to the 1123's

and here is the back, the only difference in stitching to the 1123's here is where the thumb joins the side seam. The screen gloves thumb goes all the way back to the wrsit parallel to the side seam, whereas the 1123's joins the side seam at a right angle about half way along.

these are both from the Well of Souls scene.

What is also clear from looking at the gloves throughout the film is that most of their colour comes from the fake blooHered used in the fight scenes

belloq · Post by **belloq** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:37 pm

I think all the research on the gloves is finally coming together. There is only one glove that WL currently makes that has the two parallel seams of the straight thumb and straight index finger which go all the way to the cloth hem, and the double elastic stitching, and it is not the 1123 or 1130. It is the WL industrial model Y0122, a model which Puppetboy mentioned on this forum earlier this year. And I can confirm Michaelson's statement that WL indeed did print sizes on the underside near the wrist- I own several with just the letter S for Small in that spot, but that is not their practice now. It may have been a different model number in the UK in 1980 but I think we may be finalizing this piece of gear soon, especially if agent5 can have WL confirm.

http://www.wellslamontindustry.com/styl ... tyle=Y0122

One additional note about size: either Harrison Ford has huge hands or the sizing has changed since 1980. The current size Large is HUGE and the gloves in Raiders in are snug and molded to his hands, a fit which I think is impossible with the current size Large. I think you can get that snug fit if you order a size smaller like Small or Medium and wear them to a nice custom fit.

By the way, where is the Wells Lamont mark on the screen capture that agent5 mentioned? I can't see it in those images.

Also, lonerthx, where did those caps come from- the guy who saved Raiders from ABC-HD a few years back?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 2:04 pm

You cannot see the logo completely, but when I hold my glove up to the screen I can see a darker arched line, exact to the Wells Lamont logo on my glove in the exact same spot. Maybe I should've stated this to begin with. I guess it's all up to what you see. The pic above is @#$%. If you can watch the film on your pc and enhance it, you'll be able to spot it much better and much, much clearer. It's when the German Mechanic is punching Indy in the stomach.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:57 pm

belloq wrote:http://www.wellslamontindustry.com/styl ... tyle=Y0122

That really looks promising. Thanks for the link.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:38 pm

belloq wrote:One additional note about size: either Harrison Ford has huge hands or the sizing has changed since 1980. The current size Large is HUGE and the gloves in Raiders in are snug and molded to his hands, a fit which I think is impossible with the current size Large. I think you can get that snug fit if you order a size smaller like Small or Medium and wear them to a nice custom fit.

I am 6'3" and 215 lbs. and I don't think that I am that much bigger than Harrison Ford. I have a couple of pairs of Wells Lamont 1130s in size Large. They fit me very tightly and I would really like to get some in X-Large. My 1130s are new, I just got them earlier this year.

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:36 am

OK, here are my 1123's - (the flash made them appear yellowish in the pic) - so clear something up for me: what is the difference between the 1st generation 1130, and the 1123? Here are my 1123's ....I cant see any difference, but Im not the expert...?
Is it the horizontal seam near the thumb??

A couple more things to throw into the mix, do we know when each glove was produced? It could be the 1130 was not even produced during the filming of Raiders.... The 1123 is an older glove....(I think).

Indy J

(I think I posted this in the wrong topic before....)

Indy J

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:52 am

With some four or more WL threads at once, how could any of them be the wrong topic?

I can't wait to hear Agent5's report...(where is Moneypenney?)

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:19 am

If I'm not mistaken, and I could be, the 1123 did not have 2 seams coming off the first finger down to the cuff. The 1130's do. All I remember of my 1123's before selling them is that they were not the glove I was looking at while I watched the dvd and compared them. I always thought my 1130's were a temporary glove until I could get ahold of some 1123's and when I got them I realized I had the right gloves (1130) all along. It may be possible that there were different variations of the 1123's and you may have a correct pair there, but I've never seen them.
IndyJames,
Could you please post pics of the underside and the first finger side of your 1123's? I want to have a good look at the seam structure.

belloq · Post by **belloq** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:12 am

Harrison Ford is around 5' 11" as reported by both costumers Peter Botwright and Noel Howard.

Regarding the seams, the 1123 and the 1130 do not have the straight index finger and true straight thumb which is screen accurate per the screen captures above. This means that the topside index finger seam runs all the way to the hem opening and the topside thumb seam runs all the way to the hem opening. From the images of 1123 on this site and my own stock of 1130, the topside thumb seam joins the topside index finger seam a couple of inches above the hem opening. Only the WL industrial model Y0122 has the correct match of straight index, straight thumb, straight double elastic stitching, cowhide, and cloth hem.

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 6:39 pm

Could you please post pics of the underside and the first finger side of your 1123's? I want to have a good look at the seam structure.

Lost me....do you mean a side of of the index finger? There are two stitches that run down the first (index) finger. Sorry, please claritfy for me....

I J

lonerthx · Post by **lonerthx** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:24 pm

The screencaps I posted above I did myself from the dvd, here are my 1123's I bought directly from WL 4 years ago - they are a large fyi.

belloq · Post by **belloq** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:00 am

I don't want to hijack the thread or start a new one at this point, but if anyone is interested in clarification of the details, I'll try to post comparison images of lonerthx's screen captures vs. 1130 vs. 0122 later this week.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:24 am

I would like to see a comparison of what glove is what. I would like to settle and understand the issue once and for all.

Thanks,
Pyro

lonerthx · Post by **lonerthx** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:53 pm

belloq - here are the caps you wanted

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:11 pm

OK. Good caps. I wish mine were as clear.

Now you can see what I'm talking about in terms of the seams coming down to the thumb. I was correct in my memory that the 1123's do not have two seams coming down to the cuff. However, I was wrong about where they originate. One is off the finger and the other is off the thumb. You can easily see the two seams in the caps just posted above.

The 1123's can now be taken off the list as the Indy glove- FOR GOOD!
They are a good and close variation but not worth the money some (myself included) were paying for them, and I got them fairly cheap.

Now we just need a solid answer from the WL people on what the original model number would have been in 1980 for this style and the mystery will be solved.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:21 am

Those are great grabs. What software do you use?

Thanks
Pyro

lonerthx · Post by **lonerthx** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:22 am

Pyroxene wrote:Those are great grabs. What software do you use?

Thanks
Pyro

The lastest version of windvd (it captures them as bitmaps so no compression) and then I crop, zoom and convert to jpeg in Paint Shop Pro.

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:46 pm

Will the Main Page be updated with this information?

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:13 am

Just for kicks, I picked up some undesirables tonight, and mucked w/ them. I figure that if they are the ONLY thing EVERYONE can get, there might be some value to folks like me, Snakewhip, and others who are looking for close-enoughs.

Not that I disapprove of finding the REAL glove, not at all! I'm following this intently (all the competing threads), and when the one true glove is found, if it's attainable, I may follow suit. Till then I'm just playing for the folks in the cheap seats...

Anyway, I ripped off the reinforced palm, it's just tacked on the surface. I've soaked them and I'm running them through the dryer to see if the leather will tighten up around those thread holes in the palm or not. If not, the only way to hide them is LOTS of palm distressing.

This still has the WRONG thumb, btw - the keystone is wrong, correct? The true glove has a thumb piece that runs all the way to the wrist trim, if I'm seeing things right. Oh, but since it doesn't have a cloth trim, the leather trim just matches the glove, which ain't so bad. Not accurate, but not bright orange, either.

If it actually comes out passable I'll start another thread so I don't derail this one.

~~~ we now return you to the thread in progress ~~~

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:28 am

Appreciate it, but that's the funny part I didn't mention...I fit a medium, but only found a large...but since I was gonna try to shrink em anyway to try to reduce the holes...hehehe...two birds, one big mallet - maybe I can shrink em to my size, reduce the holes so we have a passable close enough, and answer the question in the other chain about shrinking gloves, all at once.

But most likely I'll just have big stiff gloves w/ holes in them.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:33 am

Woohoo! Okay, I'll let you know what happens, probably tomorrow.

Texas Jones · Post by **Texas Jones** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:54 pm

How about these?

http://www.unclejoes.com/gloves_for_less_p2.htm

Texas Jones · Post by **Texas Jones** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:32 pm

Okay, now these are the cheapest I could find. I talked to USA Hardware and they told me these are 'tan' in color and have NO reinforced palms. These are a great deal!

Medium:

http://www.usahardware.com/inet/shop/it ... /1130m.htm

Large:

http://www.usahardware.com/inet/shop/it ... /1130l.htm

I was tempted to buy a bunch up to sell, but the short-term return wouldn't be worth the investment. I know these would be valuable in the future, so here's the link, they have PLENTY in stock, order now before this discontinued glove is no more!

Regards,
TJ

belloq · Post by **belloq** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:21 pm

This morning I took some photos of the Wells Lamont 1130 (similar to a the 1123) and the 0122 and threw a visual comparison tothether. The file is a bit large and my ftp is very slow so I didn't want to post it directly. Link is below.

http://members.aol.com/jfm3200/gloves-comparison.jpg

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:52 pm

Wow, that picture speakes volumes. Nice work Belloq!! The 0122 looks like thats it! Which would make sense as its an industrial type glove.

Kudos

I J

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:45 pm

The 1130s I ran through the dryer got nice and gnarly, but the needle holes from the reinforced palms I removed are still pretty darn visible.

They might hide better w/ some distressing, but since I threw that out there earlier I thought I'd update - NO, you can't just make the holes in the palms go away.

I think w/ some distressing these will work until Agent 5 gets some infor out of WL, the team here settles on how to get to THE glove from what is available, and a good source is identified.

I'll go back to waiting quietly now...

belloq · Post by **belloq** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:13 am

"in those pics, the piece of leather that runs over the two middle fingers, on top of the glove, is not on the 1130s or the 0122s

b.b.hovi"

Where is the piece of leather?

<img src="http://photos.groups.aol.com/_img/raide ... ntlogo.jpg">

<img src="http://www.mos-eisley.net/indy01.jpg">

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:01 am

belloq wrote:"in those pics, the piece of leather that runs over the two middle fingers, on top of the glove, is not on the 1130s or the 0122s

b.b.hovi"

Where is the piece of leather?

<img src="http://photos.groups.aol.com/_img/raide ... ntlogo.jpg">

<img src="http://www.mos-eisley.net/indy01.jpg">

I can see the stitching over the top two middle fingers in the bottom picture but the same stitching is absent in the top photo. I suppose there were two versions used in the film?

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:56 am

There's too many similarities to the index finger in both those pics - those are both the same glove.

But I agree, it looks like an extra stitched cross bar of leather in the bottom pic, but in the top pic it just looks like another rumple in the leather. Could just be a trick of the light (and shadow).

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:59 am

Indiana Jerry wrote:But I agree, it looks like an extra stitched cross bar of leather in the bottom pic, but in the top pic it just looks like another rumple in the leather.

At least you see it too. I know I wasn't just seeing things!

Serial Hero · Post by **Serial Hero** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:46 pm

I was in Target last night and found a pair of Stanly work gloves that look exactly like the WL 1123's in the pictures lonerthx posted above. The only difference is the trim is a darker brown (I guess that makes them not exact), but all of the stitching is the same.

belloq · Post by **belloq** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:30 pm

I see bumps or folds that can look like seams in certain photos but I can not find a scene or captured still that convinces me it is real seam.

If the seams are actually there, that would mean that the two middle fingers were separate parts of leather all the way around. From a manufacturing standpoint, it wouldn't make sense to do this (extra sewing) and would also be one more unnecessary weak point. Structurally, the glove would be stronger and simpler with a continuous piece of leather running up from the back of the hand through the fingers, as all leather gloves are typically made. If anyone can find clearer stills, please post them.

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:56 am

belloq wrote:From a manufacturing standpoint, it wouldn't make sense to do this (extra sewing) and would also be one more unnecessary weak point. Structurally, the glove would be stronger and simpler with a continuous piece of leather running up from the back of the hand through the fingers, as all leather gloves are typically made.

No disagreement, Belloq but when I was looking over Wal-Mart's selection of Wells-Lamont gloves, there was at least one model that had that type of 'middle finger stitching.' Since Ford was using gloves from one of the behind-the-scenes workers, we may have to entertain the possibility that he used more than one model of glove.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:26 am

Serial Hero wrote:I was in Target last night and found a pair of Stanly work gloves that look exactly like the WL 1123's in the pictures lonerthx posted above. The only difference is the trim is a darker brown (I guess that makes them not exact), but all of the stitching is the same.

The deerskin ones? Yeah, I was looking at those, too. SOFT. Nice. I was thinking of taking them just for the workshop, then making them my Indy's once I wore em down a bit.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:38 am

Indiana Joe wrote:
belloq wrote:From a manufacturing standpoint, it wouldn't make sense to do this (extra sewing) and would also be one more unnecessary weak point. Structurally, the glove would be stronger and simpler with a continuous piece of leather running up from the back of the hand through the fingers, as all leather gloves are typically made.
No disagreement, Belloq but when I was looking over Wal-Mart's selection of Wells-Lamont gloves, there was at least one model that had that type of 'middle finger stitching.' Since Ford was using gloves from one of the behind-the-scenes workers, we may have to entertain the possibility that he used more than one model of glove.

I thought I had middle finger stitching on mine, too, but look at this weirdness...this is the 1130 w/the reinforced palm, after REMOVING that reinforced palm then soaking and tumble-drying them. No, it didn't work, it's a failed experiment, but look at the palm-side of the two middle fingers:
<img src="http://tinypic.com/k3ocl">

But on the back of the glove that seam isn't there, like we are possibly seeing in the pics:
<img src="http://tinypic.com/k3odk">

But if I crumple my hands a bit - gnarl them, really, look at this great ridge w/ pops up right in that same place behind the middle fingers:
<img src="http://tinypic.com/k3ods">

...nothing conclusive, obviously, but a case for a rumple instead of a seam.

J

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:22 pm

It's nothing more than a wrinkle.

BTW, nothing yet in response from the people at Wells Lamont. I'm going to send a follow-up next week. I did tell the nice lady to take all the time she needs and that waiting a little while for the info was ok since we've already waited this long.

Getting to the bottom of Wells Lamont

Getting to the bottom of Wells Lamont

Wells Lamont Y0122

Re: Wells Lamont Y0122

Re: Wells Lamont Y0122