Hat terminology

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:10 pm

Is there a glossary of hat terms with illustrations anywhere?

I'd like to see something graphic with the parts of the hat labelled and an explanation as to what bash, pinch, turn and all that stuff means. Is there an FAQ somewhere that lays it all out for a newbie like me? It would put a stop to some of the oft repeated questions.

Pictures of variations of a bash, pinch, et cetera would be helpful as well.

Kentucky Blues · Post by **Kentucky Blues** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:25 pm

Well, I don't think one exists, but I can tell you that bash is not a real term.....I believe it may have been created by the aussies.

Regards, Daryl.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:29 pm

I've used "bash" for years... Are you sure it's not a term of some sort?

bink

Iowa Jones · Post by **Iowa Jones** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:29 pm

As a newbie on my first post, I think such a glossary would be quite useful.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:43 pm

Welcome aboard, Iowa Jones!!!

Here's a basic generic list. Folks can go into more or better detail as needed...

Brim: the floppy part of the fedora which hangs out over your eyes. The width of the brim can vary from hat to hat.

Ribbon: The decorative trim around the base of the hat (crown) which often "ties" into a bow on one side of the hat. Ribbon colors and widths may also vary.

Crown: This is the part of the hat which you actually "wear." It is the "dome" shaped part which covers your head and is shaped differently depending upon the style of the hat. The height of the crown varies with the hat's shaping and style.

Sweatband: The (usually) leather band found inside the hat which rests against your forehead while wearing the hat.

Liner: Many hats have a silk liner, the extra "cloth" inside of the hat which usually has a crest of some sort printed on it. It is tucked beneath the sweatband and covers the complete inside of the hat.

Bash: This refers to how the top of the hat is shaped and styled. For instance, Indy's hat has a fairly straight "dent" down the center of it when you view the hat from the top. The "dents" in the front of the hat are also styled specifically. This is how the hat is bashed. and Unbashed hat is one that is "open crowned," meaning it has not been styled yet and looks somewhat like a derby or bowler hat.

Pinch: This is the part of the crown where the front and top dents meet. Many people take off their hats or pick them up by the pinch. Indy's fedora has a very noticable crease in the front of the crown. This is the pinch.

Hopefully this is a decent start.

bink

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:44 pm

Bash is commonly used by the Aussies. In the USA, the term was called, "crease". Fedora

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:54 pm

That helps a bunch, but what are different types of bashes/creases and pinches? Do they have names or measurements? Fr'instance, I know an Indy fedora has a very specific bash and pinch, et cetera. Do different style have different names?

I'd like an Indy 'type' fedora, but I don't think the exact customization of the movie hats would particularly suit me, though for most here, there is no other way.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:12 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:Brim: the floppy part of the fedora which hangs out over your eyes. The width of the brim can vary from hat to hat.

Not just the front, though, eh? Basically the whole circular piece that goes all the way around the hat.

P.S. Bink, that's an EXCELLENT start. Hated to nit-pick it at all.

Snakewhip, yeah, I've heard 'high pinch' in reference to the ROTLA look, which as I understand it is a much tighter pinch that runs nearly from the peak down to the ribbon. Certainly a lot of pics for each type of thing would be necessary. For instance, there are a lot of bash types - the tear-drop, the raiders, etc. Heck, the turn should have it's own page, altogether (All: "The turn should have it's own page."). 3thoubucks could probably write it.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:51 pm

Langpuss wrote:There has LONG been a page devoted to THE TURN!!!!!

Right, I wasn't clear. 3thoubucks has a great page on the turn, and it's GREAT. I just meant if one goes to IndyGear, seems like he's the obvious person to start w/.

J

Iowa Jones · Post by **Iowa Jones** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:53 pm

binkmeisterRick, thanks for the info!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:05 pm

Indiana Jerry wrote:P.S. Bink, that's an EXCELLENT start. Hated to nit-pick it at all.

Thanks! But it is just that; a start.

I figured it would warm up the discussion a bit and then folks could nit-pick, add, and clarify.

bink

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:35 pm

http://www.davidmorgan.com/bashinghat.h ... nce=313648

This is interesting, but it might just add to questions.

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:02 pm

Presumably, the center and right hats (Fedora and Indiana John) are Indy style, but they're very different. The hat on the left is a 50's style black fedora with a short brim (sported by COW's Lash Dittmer). yes. the left.

Do the folds and silhouettes I've outlined here have names, or is it all a matter of measurements? I know bashes in the top can be either 'tylenol capsule' shaped or teardropped, or even diamond pointed - does this affect the side profile of the hat?

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:12 pm

Lash Dittmer?! That's Indiana John! He must be operating in deep cover now!

Don't you mean on the left? Regards. Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:28 pm

Snakewhip_Sable wrote:I know bashes in the top can be either 'tylenol capsule' shaped or teardropped, or even diamond pointed - does this affect the side profile of the hat?

Yes, it does. Depending upon the shape of the block used to make the hat, as well as the height of the crown, different bashes (or creases) may affect if the hat is tapered, or if the sides are straight like a stove pipe. Also, different bashes will dictate how low the crown is in the back of the profile and how high the crown is up front.

The side profile of this hat
http://public.fotki.com/binkmeisterRick ... /fed3.html

is different than the profile of this one
http://public.fotki.com/binkmeisterRick ... untry.html

The top pic is my Akubra Federation and it has a center dent Indy bash. The lower one is a vintage Dobbs (before I had it fixed up and reblocked) and has what's called a "C-dent." Though it may be difficult to see from the pics, the crown of the Dobbs comes down lower than my Akubra. The crown height unbashed is taller on the Akubra than the Dobbs, so this affects the look of the hat, as well.

bink

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:32 pm

Snakewhip_Sable wrote:I know bashes in the top can be either 'tylenol capsule' shaped or teardropped, or even diamond pointed - does this affect the side profile of the hat?

[Well put, bink.]
The side profile is also subject to changes, depending on what kind of hat you have and how it's bashed. Teardrop bashes are common on fedoras and cowboy hats - generally, the crown is a bit higher at the front pinch and 'sloping' towards the back. Binks C-dent seems to work that way, too.
The 'Tylenol capsule' bash - would that be the telescope bash, where the felt is folded around the inside of the crown? Telescope is seen in short crowned hats (some Akubra 'bush hats', for instance).

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:39 pm

Hmmm...the pics featuring Lash, Fedora and Indiana John look like Christmas fedoras, complete with fairy lights! Take another look and you'll see what I mean!

Back OT, I've never heard specific names for the variations on dents and bashes you seek above, other than has been noted. They are just side dents to me, some are higher, others shorter and they vary in width and so on to the wearers taste. I don't think there is a specific term for the size of dent someone uses. Binks guide above pretty much nails it to the best of my (albeit limited) hat knowledge.

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:01 pm

This is what I'd meant for bash shapes, I'm sure there must be a proper name for these though, right?

Often people ask me what the difference between a cowboy hat and a fedora is and I usually just gut-punch them to end the conversation, since I don't know what to say to that.

I'm kidding of course, but I am usually at a loss to explain it and just say, "They're just DIFFERENT, okay?!" I tell them, for one that cowboy hats are hard like wood and usually cover a redneck whereas a fedora is more-or-less floppy and covers a more sophisticated gentlemanly type.

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:13 pm

cowboy hats are hard like wood and usually cover a redneck whereas a fedora is more-or-less floppy and covers a more sophisticated gentlemanly type.

I can't disagree there sir.

However, I don't know the definitive answer to your question so.....

Look, is that a flying dog over there?!!

::Gutpunches Sable and beats a hasty retreat::

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:15 pm

I think the difference is in the way it's shaped. The crown is vaugely similar to some of the fedoras I've seen and most cowboy hats have no front pinch (I think), but there is a huge difference (I feel) in the brims. Some cowboy hats have brims that look like lower case "u's". Or even "u's" that fold in on themselves a little, towards the top. I've whipped up a quick picture to help illustrate my point. (NOTE: The cowboy hat may be a bit exaggerated...

)

In Christ,
Shane

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:54 am

If I only had time to draw and scan some sketches, I'd gladly do it! Unfortunately, even though I'm a graphic designer, I don't know if I could get away with it at work!

A cowboy hat usually has a huge brim compared to the average fedora. The crown is often taller, too, and the felt is stiff and fairly immovable to help retain the "U" shape that McFly shows above.

The "tylenol" shape you drew is a center dent, as refered to on the Morgan site:
http://www.davidmorgan.com/bashinghat.h ... nce=313648

Your drawing, though, shows that there would be no tight pinch in the front of the hat like Indy's and that the side dents would be "relaxed" like the hat on the Morgan site. Now when you create the tight Raiders pinch, the front of the center dent/crease will give you somewhat of an arrow on that end. The teardrop essentially pushes more of the top of the crown into the hat, opening up the crease more than the center dent does. The teardrop is closer in appearance to the C-dent of my Dobbs, but more relaxed, if that makes sense.

bink

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:56 am

I tell them, for one that cowboy hats are hard like wood and usually cover a redneck whereas a fedora is more-or-less floppy and covers a more sophisticated gentlemanly type.

You have to be careful with that "redneck" term, which is considered derogatory and we should all be above that here.

There are plenty of oilmen who wear cowboy hats and other business people in the South and South West who wear cowboy hats with suits and would fit the definition of a "gentleman" And there are not a few Presidents and ex-Presidents who wear cowboy hats and are certainly gentlemen. Ronald Reagan comes to mind with his famous "horseshoe-shaped" top dent in his cowboy hat, which, by the way, is a very impressive hat and full of stiffener. It takes a man of impressive stature and gravitas to pull that hat off.

There are also scores of hardworking Americans who proudly wear the cowboy hat, an inherently American form of head-cover, to work, to school to church each day and they may be the finest gentlemen of all.

I tip my fedora to them all. Anyone who wears a hat, other than a baseball cap, is a brother-in-arms, er heads!

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:50 am

Wow, great descriptions all. And a neat help for newcomers I think... Maybe it could be worth putting it on the main page, or making it sticky for new members?
Also, I think Moloram made a nice terminology map a while back regarding whips. Maybe the same thing could be done with that?
Just a few thoughts, and I'm impressed.

Regards,
Swindiana

Flattery · Post by **Flattery** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:34 pm

So, what exactly is a "block?" It's easy enough to assume, but it'll help to know for sure, especially when it comes to "reblocking."

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:53 pm

At hat block is a form (usually made of wood) which you pull the hat body over in order to create the basic shape of the hat. Some blocks come with the "pre-bashed" shape allowing the hatmaker to style the hat directly on the block. Other blocks come "open crowned" and give you the basic hat (like an Akubra Federation out of the box) leaving the bashing for later. When you get a hat reblocked (like if it's tapered over time) the hatmaker essentially cleans and wets the hat and pulls it back over the block in order to straighten out the sides and give the hat the appearance of a new one.

Look up "hat blocks" on any search engine and you'll stumble upon some pics.

bink

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:54 pm

I have a video of someone blocking a hat. It's Joe Jr. at the Texas Summit. He's blocking a Herbert Johnson that I owned...and then gave away

You can download it here. (8.43 Mb Real Player (Running Time: 5:09, no audio))

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:58 pm

That's very informative, even without sound. I think people seeing that would feel confident shaping their own lids.

Are most Indy hats rigid-hard like that one?

Flattery · Post by **Flattery** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:00 pm

Thanks for your replies, fellas -- much appreciated.

Iowa Jones · Post by **Iowa Jones** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:59 pm

Can anyone add the term "taper"? I have a vague idea, but as I have no actual Indy hat, I'm interested in the idea for long term wear and ownership...

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:15 pm

That's when the sides of the hat turn in near the top in a cone-like fashion, but not as extreme. The kids here like their straight up and down lines to a hat.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:29 am

This is taper...

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:56 pm

Can this topic be made Sticky? It would be useful for newbies... like me.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:57 pm

Done! Regards. Michaelson

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:43 am

Yes! They made it a sticky! WOOT.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:17 am

Wow! And to think I actually HELPED the thread along this time!

bink

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:00 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:Wow! And to think I actually HELPED the thread along this time!

bink

Oh, what has become of our little Binky...this is so unlike him...there must be something else going on...

... :idea: EXCELLENT, Bink! Now our off-topic postings will exist for-EVER!!!! Uh, why did my count just go down 50 again? Rats...

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:00 pm

What is the term "Mushrooming" all about, in regard to Indy fedoras?

Anyone have any illustrations or photos to explain?

I'm a visual learner.

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:42 pm

Mushrooming I think is "reverse" taper.

Most people want an Indy fedora with NO taper, like this: l l

Taper is when the sides of the crown come in towards the top: / \

Reverse Taper (or the mushroom effect) is when the crown actually is wider at the top, kinda like the ribbon is a little tight: \ /

Lee Keppler has a great fedora picture of his own fedora showing the famous "reverse taper" - I can't find it at the moment thou....

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:05 pm

Here's what I think it is....

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:00 am

Here's the one of Lee's "reverse" taper....

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:12 pm

... and here's another mushrooming effect - the back of my Akubra Fed...