HJ's the more things change, the more........

[Fedora]

I just got a kick out of perusing an old forum. So many of the guys there have left the hobby, but this stuff is interesting.

I just recently returned from a trip to Europe where, while in London, I stopped in at Herbert Johnson. I met Richard Swales, the original maker of the Indy fedora, and talked to him about making my new hat. He had one waiting for me, the modified "Poet" as described all over the net. As I'm sure many of you are aware, Indy's hats change ever so slightly throughout each film.
: Richard maintained that the modified "Poet" was the hat he supplied for the films. He proudly showed a B&W still, a production shot from Raiders with Ford's knee up and a whip in one hand, comparing the original with the one he'd just made. This still is one of the few shots where Indy's hat looks very dark. And, sure enough, Mr. Swales' hat was almost a choclate brown.
: The hat turned out to be the wrong size, so I looked around the shoppe to see what options I had. He had no more Poets in stock, so I tried on a H.J. English Trilby. The color, in my opinion, was closer to the photos I'd seen. It had a slightly shorter crown, as seen in Temple and Crusade. And the felt was of a superior quality. The brim still had to be trimmed as the Poet's was all those years ago. The final product is, in my opinion, the true Indy fedora.




I asked Mr Swales to make my hat just like the Raiders version. It's a modified Poet with a 5.5 inch crown height. Sides are 2 5/8"
Front and back are 2 3/4
Finally, this is a 7 1/4 hat size which is reportedly the same size of hat that Harrison wore.



MY Herbert Johnson measurements are 2 5/8" front and back, and 2 1/2" on the sides. I asked Mr. Swales for "exact Raiders specs". DidI get screwed?



Matt, I was the one who originally posted the info about the two different ribbon suppliers (Hyman Hendler in NY, and Catherine Delaney in London), but you shouldn't need to worry any longer as Mr. Swales at HJ tells me that he had the proper ribbon reproduced by a company in Spain. The hats from them come with the dark brown petersham reproduction. I'll let you know what I think when my second hat comes next week.
And in case you care about measurements of the hat, my current hat has the following: 4 1/2 inch high crown, brim: 2 5/8 inch in front, 2 1/8 inch on sides, 2 1/2 inch in back. hope this helps



Actually I remember many posts where people said that the Herbert Johnson was nothing like the ones in the movies anymore which is totally false. They said everything from color, shape, and crown height were different on the HJ. I just always try to defend that it does closely resemble the Crusade hat. Now maybe there are subtle differences between the HJ made in 1989 worn by Mr. Ford and the current offering, but they are as close as they come. True I have seen a few owners defending the hat, but I am just trying to make sure if people have the money to buy a Herbert Johnson that they aren't deterred from buying one because of misinformation about its quality and appearance. I do have to agree with you that you can get an equal quality hat for 1/2 or maybe even 1/3 the price. I have the Official Indy Hat and the Indiana Miller and I would say they are just as nice as far as quality goes. But I still retain that the HJ fedora looks exactly like the hat from Crusade and is a wonderful hat and the service HJ gives is great. I just sent it back to be stretched and reblocked. I realise that many people cannot justify buying a 300 dollar hat but if they can then I just want to make sure they know that Herbert Johnson is the way to go in my opinion. I mean I would have a hard time buying a 300 dollar hat if it didn't look very similar if not exactly like the hats in the movies. And I think that is what many people are being persuaded to think. So if you are one of those people, don't believe it. And if nobody is being persuaded to believe that then ignore me.



Greg, Was the second HJ hat with the spanish felt darker than the first one you got?


For some reason I feel compelled to respond to the somewhat negative feedback most of Herbert Johnsons' customer's have posted here. When I phoned the company I had a very positive experience, and the hat I recieved is a dead ringer for the Last Crusade hat. I wasn't really convinced when I got it, but when I looked at the picture of Harrison ford standing beside his stunt double (Glenn Randall I think) in an old issue of the Lucasfilm fan club magazine, all my doubts were put to rest. Not only were the dimensions bang on, but the colour was correct as well.
If you order a hat from Herbert Johnson's, you have to remember that you aren't buying a movie prop, and it has been ten years (gasp) since the last Indy movie, so like I believe Michaelson posted, all of the materials used have been, well, used. What do you get though?
A hat of the highest quality that will serve you well in your adventures over the years, and in time, will weather and shape to look exactly like the hat we are all familiar with on Indiana Jones' head.

I totally agree with you and I'm glad you brought that issue up after
all those rather negative messages about the HJ hat. I too had a
positive experience with them when I visited the shop last summer.
Though it seems as if only two people are there that actually know
about the Indy fedora. Anyway, it certainly is difficult to re-create
a hat after all those years with different materials. But you can
be sure to get a high quality hat that looks (at least in my opinion)
like the Last Crusade hat. Just my two cents.


Well maybe that's the problem- everyone is expecting a Raiders hat and when they get it, it doesn't look the same.....instead, the hat resembles the Last Crusade hat, which nobody is expecting. Do you think he might be going off of Last Crusade specs when making it??


Quite a ways down the list, Dakota Ellison requested the measurements from my HJ. Sorry it took so long but I had to find a tape measure.
I bought Herbert Johnson this past March and asked for the standard Indiana Jones "Poet" model, as I'm not as concerned as some about exact details. I'm not even concerned about the color of the liner, though I will probably have the Peters Bros. changed to white if I ever have to send it back for cleaning or servicing. I just wanted a nice, well-crafted HJ hat for my nearly $300. It came in about ten days, which was a great surprise after waiting for my Wested.
Size: I gave them a head measurement of 22 3/4" or 58mm (approximately a size 7 1/4). It came a bit snug but I had a David Morgan hat stretcher waiting and the hat now fits perfectly.
Brim: 2 5/8" sides, 2 7/8" front and back.
Crown: 5 3/8" on both sides, 4 5/8" at the front and rear of the crease (that's after I straightened it out; it was nearly a full inch off-center when I got it. Disconcerting, but handy for peaking around corners and still looking cool, I guess).
One additional note, the brim is soft and doesn't hold its shape very well (though I haven't tried steaming it yet). For some reason, I think it looks dull and lifeless. The Peters Bros. comes with a very stiff brim that is beautifully shaped. It's a tough choice and I consider myself lucky to have been able to purchase both.
While I'm at it, here are the measurements from my Peters Bros.
Size: Again, I ordered 22 3/4" (my head hasn't grown any) and it came fitting perfectly, though I still keep a David Morgan hat stretcher in it.
Brim: 2 1/2" on the sides, 2 3/4" front and back (as I requested).
Crown: 5 1/4" on the sides, a little over 4 1/2" front, 4 5/8" rear.
Side by side, the two hats look almost identical. The fractions of inches difference are not noticeable to my eye. I really believe that what looks good on someone else (ie: Harrison Ford) may not look good on you. I also believe that there is not one exact Indiana Jones hat, but several versions of the basic model that were used by the various people who wore them on screen (ie: stuntmen). And, as I understand it, Harrison Ford wore different versions in different scenes based on the logistical nightmare of shooting an action movie. All I know is that the Peters Bros. has a beautiful look to it, and I like the way it looks on me; it seems more authentic (can't do anything about the face) even though it's not THE Indy fedora. That's why I decided to buy both. In closing, the Peters Bros. is definitely less expensive and better crafted, and the manufacturer is so much more convenient and accomodating. I am not expert enough to compare the materials in each, and only time will tell which one is more durable.
Make yourself happy. Good luck.
Cueball


I tried talking to Richard Swales about all this while he was fixing my hat, but he doesn't seem to remember any details from those days. He tried selling me a modified Poet that was a choclate brown color claiming that's what he used originally. I smiled and asked him to modify that McAlpine, which he wonderfully did.


While in London, Mr. Swales told me that the felt now used in the making of the Poet is from a different source than those used for the films. I also remember, before ever buying my HJ, that someone said that the felt came from Brazil (I'm not sure if that was the originals or the new ones, though). Regardless of where the felt originated, HJ was the only makers of the true Indy fedora.


As far as I know the current felt supplier is somewhere in Spain as
: well as the source for the Petersham ribbon. The felt for the original
: Indy hat used in the movies was bought from Christie's of London which
: got them from Brazil.
: And no, they don't offer a certificate of authencity as Wested does but
: maybe if a lot of people request it and if they see there is a demand
: for them maybe HJ will then ship with one.

[ANJALI]

Hello !
I have a "chocolat" hat from Herbert Johnson which I bought in the eighties and next I'll show you in pictures...but the chocolat colour is really "chocolat" not "brown".
I've seen the pictures of the German HJ of Mr Langpuss, it's very nice and similar to the basic model of the movie but actually, for me, the problem -as you could see it on my pictures (HJ from France) - is the quality of the felt. With a good felt no problem of shrinkage...
Regards