Do all the lambs sag eventually, or just some lambs?

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:32 am

I saw this mentioned once or twice in some threads, but I'd like to focus on this point, rather than pull everything else into it.

I live in warm weather - Southern California, which would indicate lamb as a preferred choice, weight/warmwise. But I'm leaning towards a heavier leather for durability because I like stuff to be FUNCTIONAL and TOUGH...because I'm CLUMSY and FALL DOWN a lot. (See, at least I know my shortcomings.) And I want something I'm not going to be looking at after a couple years of wear and saying, Gee, wish I could re-block a jacket...

Kidding aside...I know the lambs are not as flimsy as some questioned, but I haven't heard much defense that they do NOT sag - most of the posts saying they hadn't seen that - unless I'm misremembering - stated that they hadn't had them long or that they didn't wear them out in the tough weather much.

So, really, from folks who've well used their lambs for at least two years - do they sag?

Thanks,
IJ

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:01 am

I'm also assuming that the horse doesn't sag, although I'm aware it's only been out a couple months...can't wait to see some of the distress/wear/tear on that...hope I can wait that long!

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:13 am

INDIANAMIKEY wrote:It's a little known fact(in best Cliff Claven voice[Cheers!]) that lambs instinctively never fall down and scuff their own skin. They are notorious for their keen sense of ba-a-a-aaaalance.

Thanks, Mikey... I needed that!

Do all the lambs sag eventually, or just some lambs?

All lambs... eventually. The poor creatures become sheep and grow old, just like the rest of us.

And no, I didn't mean we all become sheep.

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:22 am

My old goat doesn't sag.
My jacket though, we'll see.

Mental note: Do not let GF read this or there'll be no lambstouch.

Regards,
Swindiana

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:27 am

It's going to also depend on how much 'junk' you carry in your jacket pocket. I've seen lambskin jackets in perfect condition after YEARS of wear, but little to nothing carried in the pockets. I've seen brand new ones completely sagged to the bottom, simply due to a LOT of extra weight being carried in the pockets. Gravity is the factor here, and the more help you give it, the quicker it will happen. Regards. Michaelson

Post by **Ken** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:17 pm

A similar problem I had was that for 6 months I wore my jacket 1/2 zipped up 5 days a week. After 6 months the jacket would always then fold back on itself around the zipper when I tried to wear it unzipped.

Ken

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:36 pm

This seems to happen with most all the Wested jackets I've ever owned, REGARDLESS of the type leather it's made from. It seems to stem from the connection of jacket to collar on that side, but of that I'm not certain. But all my Westeds have done this, so you're not the Lone Ranger, Ken.

If any of you folks who are going to meet up with Peter at the London summit have this problem, PLEASE take a sample jacket and ask Peter what is going on. I know I'D appreciate knowing the reason. I mentioned this on more than on occasion in years past, but to date no reply ever came from them, as maybe they couldn't visualize what I was talking about. Regards. Michaelson

Post by **Ken** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:49 pm

I actually showed it to Peter on my first jacket at the first London summit the other year. His reaction seemed to be that of 'Oh. I haven't noticed that' When I showed it to him and he said that he didnt know of a way of reversing it. Other than that I dont remember if he said there was a way of preventing it.

I have found with my recent lamb that if when u zip it up you make sure to arrange it to that it kind of blouses out at the top instead of is pulled then you can kind of prevent it. At least its worked so far for the last 6 months, though admittedly I try only to cip it up when necessay.

Ken

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:55 pm

He hadn't noticed it? It's been one of my main gripes for years, and I've said so on many occasion!!!

I finally just gave up.

Ah well. Regards. Michaelson

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:46 pm

Indiana Ken wrote:A similar problem I had was that for 6 months I wore my jacket 1/2 zipped up 5 days a week. After 6 months the jacket would always then fold back on itself around the zipper when I tried to wear it unzipped.

Ken

Having trouble picturing what you mean...I must not have a Wested yet.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:49 pm

Try and picture wearing a jacket that one side, when unzipped, rolls 180 degrees around to the outside, showing the lining side of your jacket, starting from the collar to the bottom of the jacket. Unless your jacket is zipped, it rolls around that way everytime. Can you think of a better way to describe it, Ken? Regards. Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:01 pm

Can you use an iron to flatten it out? (Using a towel between the jacket and iron, of course.)

bink

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:06 pm

It's a problem in the design rather than a crease that can be fixed with an ironing, bink. I had it in an authentic lambskin Wested jacket I used to own, and I wore the jacket to the last QM summit, all crunched up in the middle seat on a cross country flight. When I got there, the bend was completely gone, so there may be some method to your madness, but I haven't had much luck with any OTHER Wested to date.

Regards. Michaelson

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:48 pm

Ouch! Is there enough info to determine if this common to all Westeds based on a design point, or just certain softer leathers?

Michaelson, you noted it happened on all yours regardless of the leather type, but I can't help trying to nail that down...it's an engineer thing, so sorry if I'm just making you repeat yourself.

I think you noted elsewhere you also have goat...if you do, then sounds like you are dead on, it's a design issue if it can even happen with that stiffer leather.

J

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:57 pm

I have goat, but not by Wested. I've experienced this with cowhide (pre- and non distressed), new finish cowhide, lambtouch cowhide, and lambskin. I've only experienced it with Wested jackets, and no other manufacturer, so it's somehow involved with the design at the collar area on one side. Oh, and you're not bothering me...I work for the Engineering Management department here at the Institute, so I'm around engineers all day long...heck, I'm a video production engineer, for heavens sake.

Regards. Michaelson

Post by **Ken** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:08 pm

I think you described it best Michaelson.

I did attempt a clothes peg method whereby I rolled it several times in the opposite direction than it was rolling itself and used about 6 pegs on it and left it for a week like this. Alas, when I removed the pegs after a few minutes it reverted back to its demon rolled state.

Ken

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:12 pm

'Demon rolled state'. Can't describe it any better myself, Ken. Thanks.

Regards. Michaelson

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:15 pm

Great, thanks for being cool, Michaelson! I am SO going to put that "Michaelson Rocks" sticker in my 551 as a crest after I finish reshaping it...

I think you should take that last definitive post of yours right there, along w/ ANY picture anyone took of you that was 'blighted' by the rollback effect you are describing, and send it off w/ a really nice but informative letter to Peter...sounds like the one definite ISSUE he could look into for the design.

Every other mod we discuss sounds like 'tweaking' next to that one!

("You know engineers, they love to change things." - Scotty)

J

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:21 pm

Here here. Like I said above, sometimes seeing is better than telling, and we have a LARGE group going to visit Peter next month on a London summit. If Ken is going, maybe he can show him the jacket again and tell him it's a common occurance out here, and is there any ideas what can be done to fix it. Regards. Michaelson

(surely you can find something better than a 'Michaelson Rocks' sticker to put in your hat.

)

Indiana Jess · Post by **Indiana Jess** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:24 pm

Michaelson wrote:(surely you can find something better than a 'Michaelson Rocks' sticker to put in your hat. )

You mean like ... err .... nevermind.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:29 pm

You say 'boxers' once more, Jess, and you'll NEVER guess what you're getting for Christmas this year.

Regards. Michaelson

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:58 pm

Ya know I'm reading this post and I'm thinking, yea my distressed cow Wested does this to. When it does this demon roll, is it not on the same side as the pocket, it is on mine, I always thought that it was the pocket that was doing it. Due to the weight of the facing around the pocket. My last Wested which is an Auth goat. I asked for minamal facing around pocket. I've only had it for a month or so and no demon roll. Demon roll that nails it. I think wev'e seen the beginging of a new slang term.

Alas, when I removed the pegs after a few minutes it reverted back to its demon rolled state.

Full credit goes to:Indiana Ken
Croft

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:23 am

Okay, so I can't escape demon roll for the time being. unless, if it IS related to inner facings, to get minimal facing (or even skip the inner pockets altogether!!!...

: ...

: ...you're supposed to repeat me when I say that...nevermind...)

Back on topic (shooting from the window of the glass house), any other long time lamb owners got a lamb that ain't sagging despite continual use?

I think the gravity explanation pretty much sums it up, though, (after all, they do sag DOWN...), so if I don't get any further takers I think I got what I wanted.

And we started grassroots outrage against the demon roll, so that's a bonus.

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:23 am

Can you use an iron to flatten it out? (Using a towel between the jacket and iron, of course.)

I am not advocating this but I have found a temporary fix for this.

My lambskin does this and as much as I tried to undo it and sort of push the zippered edges to the side rather than fold them over, the jacket continued to do this - especially at the top by the collar.

During a hike, I brought the jacket for warmth since the tops of the mountains are colder than the bottom (and I thought heat rises?!) Of course, although not in the forecast -it rained. I put the jacket on since it is worse to be wet and subjected to cold wind than just wet. The jacket got soaked through and I hung it on a hanger (zipped up) to dry.

Once dry, the problem was gone since the jacket was noticibly stiffer. I treated the entire jacket except the problem area with Pecard's. Jacket stays un-flipped now. I doubt it is a permanent fix, but it did do something. I thought I would present it to the members here to toss around.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:17 am

Michaelson wrote:You say 'boxers' once more, Jess, and you'll NEVER guess what you're getting for Christmas this year. Regards. Michaelson

Um, how do you know he doesn't NEED them, Michaelson?

bink who can't see his avitar even though it seem everybody else can

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:16 am

I can't see it either, Bink.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:24 am

I can....and I'm talking about his avitar...not Jess's boxer problem.

MIKEY, actually what you say makes perfect sense, and if yours doesn't roll now, more than likely it won't. Mine have come that way out of the bag from day one, and it appears to be at the seam at the top of the jacket where it connects to the collar. The collar tends to twist, making a side roll outward. Not being a tailor, I have NO idea what to suggest as a fix...

Regards. Michaelson

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:44 am

Lamb sag and demon roll? I've had my lamb Wested since the beginning of this year and I am looking at my jacket and thinking, "what the heck are they talking about?"

Maybe I haven't had my jacket long enough for these issues to appear. Or, maybe I have a jacket that will not have these issues. I don't know. Mine just looks like a jacket. It looks the same as when I got it. But remember, I lean more towards Felix Unger than Oscar Madison.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:46 am

The issue appears immediately, so if yours does not have it, it will more than likely not develop. Regards. Michaelson

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:30 pm

I'd like to know what this is and I'm a visual learner. Does anyone have a photo to reference?

I.J.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:33 pm

Michaelson wrote:The issue appears immediately, so if yours does not have it, it will more than likely not develop. Regards. Michaelson

Hmmm... I don't think my Wested goat has this problem... is this a lambskin issur only, or is it apparent with other hides?

bink

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:38 pm

I listed the ones I've had it happen with above. Regards. Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:58 pm

Michaelson wrote:I have goat, but not by Wested. I've experienced this with cowhide (pre- and non distressed), new finish cowhide, lambtouch cowhide, and lambskin. I've only experienced it with Wested jackets, and no other manufacturer. Michaelson

DOH! Sorry, I'm a bit slow on the draw today. I'm running as slow as our servers at work (which are currently being worked on).

bink

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:55 pm

Take a look at this pic, I don't know if my jacket has a major demon roll but as you look at the pic you can see how the jacket kinda flairs out starting from the collar down, but most noticably near the inside leather facing.

http://public.fotki.com/IndianaCroft/my ... acket.html

Sorry for the poo condtion of my gear but if you look at some of my other pics you'll see my newer gear.
Croft

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:27 am

Michaelson, if Croft's picture is accurate of what you're referring to, it looks to me like a draping problem - the weight of the leather seems to be pulling the end of the collar down and away from the throat, so now there's 'extra' to curl...

...picture for example a set of drapes/curtains, once pushed back - too much fabric, so it naturally undulates against itself...

...or even better, your favorite national flag - hang it straight, it's nice and flat - but hang it at an ANGLE, and suddenly it's curling against itself - too much fabric/material all hanging down in the same place.

This just looks like a roll caused by the front not staying stiff enough to wrap around the body.

If that's true, then Rick's observations fit - get it soaked, dry it zipped, and the leather stiffens up in that flat desired position, and may not roll again until it softens enough to...uh...'sag' from the collar. (Why does it have to come back to the sag???)

Unless Croft's pic is not what you were referring to as the 'demon roll'. In which case, I just won a cupie doll, and will shut up for a day. No, really, promise. If this is a pic of the demon roll, and that ain't the problem, no more posts for twenty-four hours...

J

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:59 am

This is a good example of the 'Demon roll' ( you need to patent that Ken!(grins)), but most I've had have been more extreme than the one shown. The soaking trick works for a bit, but once it dries, it rolls right back into position, Pecards applied or not. Here's the rub....Wings jackets and FS jackets do NOT do this. Why Wested? It's a consistant problem of the jackets I've had come through my door, and I haven't been able to put my finger on the reason yet. Don't get me wrong...it hasn't been ALL the jackets, but the vast majority. Like I said, just wearing that lambskin on the plane to the summit scrunched up in the middle seat fixed that one, and the roll never returned. I've NEVER had that success with heavier leathers.

You get the kewpie doll today, Jerry. (grins)

Regards. Michaelson

Indiana Jess · Post by **Indiana Jess** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:13 pm

Michaelson, do you know if this happens on Wested's LC jackets? I figure since the collar design is different, then maybe the 'demon roll' might not occur on it. Regards.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:21 pm

Does on my LC new finish cowhide, but it's so heavy, I only wear it when it's COLD!!! so the roll doesn't bother me as much. Regards. Michaelson

Indiana Jess · Post by **Indiana Jess** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:42 pm

Thanks.

This is quite a conundrum. I've been considering purchasing a Wested horsehide, but I really hate that demon roll. However, Wested is the only one of the three jacket makers (Wested, Flight Suits, US Wings) that manufactures the Indy jacket in horsehide.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:17 pm

Like I said, Jess, it's a roll of the dice. I've been plagued with the problem, but it may be my build that causes the jacket to do what it does, as well as the fact that there have only been a few of us who experience this problem. More than likely you won't fall into this. Hopefully Irwin will see this post soon (the owner of a horsehide Wested) and can tell us if HIS does this. Regards. Michaelson

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:11 pm

The soaking trick works for a bit, but once it dries, it rolls right back into position, Pecards applied or not.

This is where our opinions differ. The soaking trick worked because the jacket dried and it was stiffer. I did not apply Pecards to the area that previously curled because I didn't want to soften it enough to curl again. Basically the stormflap is a little stiffer than the rest of the jacket now and behaves itself. Maybe I am talking about something different than everyone else. Take a look at the picture of my jacket hanging on a hanger and see if this is what you mean. For now, the top stays closed better...

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:16 pm

My post has been misunderstood...it was an either/or description. I've done it BOTH ways, and neither worked for me, Rick. Maybe mine were more rolled than yours...apparently so by the description of your soaking experience working for you....it did NOT work for ME. Regards. Michaelson

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:30 pm

I have pictures of me wearing the jacket where it is really obvious, but I look more foolish than usual. Ah, what the heck, here it is. Anything for Indygear and the advancement of our cause. I have wet it many times and have not had the jacket get stiffer until I was caught in the 1 1/2 hour down pour while hiking above the treeline. That stiffened the leather. Maybe it was acid rain or something. I was a bit concerned to feel the way the jacket felt actually, but it is better now. I am sure you are right - just by wearing it it will soften and curl again. In the meantime, I will enjoy it the way it is. I just attributed it to the softness (flimsyness) of the leather as the horsehides I have do not do this...

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:36 pm

Yep, that's the 'demon roll', but yours is the first I've ever seen on BOTH sides of the jacket. Man, you DID have a problem, didn't you?!

Regards. Michaelson

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:42 pm

Hahaha. Not really, I just bent the other side to match so although it looked goofy, it looked symetrically goofy. I don't do anything halfway. Like my friend Yoda said, "No! Do. Or do not. There is no try." If I am going to look goofy, I will do it 100% (and have succeeded in that picture).

Post by **Ken** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:49 pm

Good idea - from now on I demand the expression when used be cited as Demon Roll TM and I get 5 cents

Ken

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:55 pm

Well, as my dear Mother says on ocasion, 'you're old enough where your 'wants' won't hurt you.' (grins) Heck, after I deduct my commission for being your coordinator, you'd owe ME!!

Regards. Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:22 pm

Is a Demon Roll like a Devil's Food Cake? If so, YUM!!!

bink

Indiana Jess · Post by **Indiana Jess** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:35 pm

Indiana Ken wrote:Good idea - from now on I demand the expression when used be cited as Demon Roll TM and I get 5 cents

Ken

Well would you settle for my 2 cents - as opposed to sense, of which I have none. However, I'll have to refer you to Bink if it's scents you're looking for.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:02 pm

Indiana Jess wrote:
Indiana Ken wrote:Good idea - from now on I demand the expression when used be cited as Demon Roll TM and I get 5 cents

Ken
Well would you settle for my 2 cents - as opposed to sense, of which I have none. However, I'll have to refer you to Bink if it's scents you're looking for.

HEY! I don't--(sniff sniff) well, okay... it must be the new cologne I'm sporting for Jess' new line of Indy scents. (sniff) Yep, that's the one!

bink