Warmer Alternative

Indiana_Stone · Post by **Indiana_Stone** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:26 pm

Hey all. I ordered a Wested Lamb Authentic Brown Raiders this summer and love it. But, I also want to have another, warmer jacket for the winter months (and no, I don't want to layer).

Now, I do love the Lamb, but if I did it again, I would order it slightly smaller, and slightly shorter. It feels just a bit baggy on my puny frame. That said, for this second jacket, I still want to go for the tight fitting jacket, but obviously not in Lamb.

The question comes down to hides - primarily Goatskin or New Finish Cowhide. I've read that the Cowhide is warmer (and that is the point of the jackets, to have the coolest and the warmest), but that the Goatskin is also warm. My first question is how different are these two hides in warmth.

My second question is how different are these two hides in drape and appearance. Is the cowhide able to replicate the movie drape, or will it be bigger/baggier/different looking. If I am going for a tighter, smaller, more closer fitting jacket, can that even be replicated with the cowhide, or is it going to feel similarly baggy regardless?

Ok, lots of questions, if anyone can help me in my quest towards the perfect winter indy, it would be greatly appreciated.

Post by **Ken** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:38 pm

Personally I would go with goatskin - you can get authentic goat which will be an exact match with the on screen jacket wheras you cant get such an accurate colour with the Cowhide. The goatskin will also drape better I think whereas the Cowhide is too thick. The lamb will always, of course, have the best drape as it was the material used in the film.

Also amke sure to ask for the 1980s slimmer cut when you get it and discuss with Peter in depth where the first jacket was too large and how much you need off on the second one.

As for warmth I think think while the Cowhide is probably the warmest you would be just as good with a goatskin (I live in Scotland and have tried both and both are pretty warm - the lamb of course isnt the warmest for this climate!).

Ken

Indiana_Stone · Post by **Indiana_Stone** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:49 pm

Ken, would you say the Cowhide is significantly warmer than the Goatskin? Or perhaps, is the Goatskin closer to the Lamb warmth or the Cowhide warmth?

I have heard everyone rave about Goat/Lamb, and not as much about Cowhide, and have seen many many pictures of Goat (that look great), and not that many of Cowhide. However, I don't want to end up with a summer jacket and a...late...summer jacket, if that makes sense. (I live in Chicago, btw).

Thanks again.

Gater · Post by **Gater** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:58 pm

Stone,

I live in Ottawa, Canada, where the Summers are +35 C and the winters go to -35C.

I have a predistressed cowhide, and for the most part, I have worn it from early Fall to late Spring for the past 3 years. If the weather gets too cold, I can't wear a sweater under the Wested, but I haven't really had problems.

It's not a WINTER jacket, by any means, but it has held its own for Canadian winters. I cannot speak of the goat as I have never seen one, but I can attest to cow by personal experience...for what it's worhth

Mr. Das · Post by **Mr. Das** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:02 pm

Well, I can speak for the goat. I wore it during Canadian winters last year and didn't have a problem. A sweater underneath is a must, but I was fine even on the coldest days.

I haven't tried cowhide since I wanted the authentic colour.

Post by **Ken** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:07 pm

I would group the Goat and Cow together in terms of warmness and both being significantly more so than the lamb. Personally I think the cowhide is a little warmer but the difference is relativly negligable. I think you woudl find the goat the best overall for everythign you are lookign for.

Ken

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:10 pm

I agree with Ken, the goat and the cow both felt almost identical in ability to keep you warm considering that the goat is a tad bit lighter. I've owned all 3 skins so far, and I agree, goat is a great middle ground jacket for all around comfort and protection.
'Blues

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:19 pm

I agree with what has been suggested, the authentic goat is a good choice. I have owned a lambskin, cowhide and goatskin - I must admit I found the cowhide the warmest of these hides, but the goatskin is a close second and it drapes much better, it's lighter and has the authentic colour - it's tougher too!

Of course, Peter also offers horsehide now - I understand this is a warm hide but have no first hand experience. It doesn't come in the authentic colour yet unfortunately.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:58 pm

ob1al wrote:Of course, Peter also offers horsehide now - I understand this is a warm hide but have no first hand experience. It doesn't come in the authentic colour yet unfortunately.

I'm not sure whether it will play out to be a very warm jacket, actually. My horse has felt adequate - but we are now in Spring, and I never got to test it against the brunt of this year's winter.

Indiana_Stone · Post by **Indiana_Stone** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:08 pm

Thanks for the replies everyone. I am leaning towards the goat, now, although I would still like to see some cowhide pictures. (I've been looking, and I will continue to do so, but most of the older links are broken.)

What is making me lean towards goat is partly that the warmth difference seems to be slim, and partly the fact that I'm not sure if "a warmer alternative" is what I really want, or just an excuse I am telling myself so that I can get another slimmer, perhaps warmer, more perfect Wested...

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:11 pm

If you want something truly different, get a horse cut into the Raiders pattern. Same properties as goat... but a gorgeous russet colour running through the jacket. Makes it different to what you already have and, perhaps, justifies having another Wested. Just my POV, of course.

Trevelyan · Post by **Trevelyan** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:15 pm

I'm a little late on this thread, but here's my 2 cents. If you truly want a warmer jacket, the goat's not going to make a difference over your lamb. The Indy jacket is just not made for very cold temperatures, due to the lack of insulation and the thin leather. However, You could probably have Peter install a lining in your jacket to make it much warmer, or you could spend some more money and order from U.S. Wings, which have significantly thicker hides from everything I've read. Anyway, just some food for thought. Good luck with your choice.

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:43 am

I had owned a Wested New Finish/Standard Cowhide....

It was nice and dark in color, VERY soft and comfortable, tougher than the lamb, but very THICK.

It was a great jacket, but it wasn't what I, personally, was looking for in an Indy jacket. Don't get me wrong, it was nice, but I recall wearing it when it was cool.....jacket weather

.....but, before long.....it got "too hot" to wear. To me, it was a nice "winter" jacket to have while living here in Pennsylvania. However, it did not make a good fall or spring jacket. And, with it being pretty new, it was rather bulky in my opinion.

Then, Wested began offering the Goatskin....it is not thick at all as compared to the New Finish Cow. Yet, the Goat can be slightly thicker than the Lambskin. And, the Goatskin is MORE durable than the Cowhide.......

Personally, I prefer the Goatskin for good durability, good drape, and slightly thicker than the lambskin for the added warmth.

Just my .02 cents, so I hope this helped....
Kind Regards,
Captain D

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:15 am

Stone, here's a thread from awhile back that addressed what you're talking about. http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6721

About a year and half ago there was a good thread that covered the warmth issue as well as durability.
http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2661

Hope it helps!

I.J.

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:18 am

A couple of things you might want to consider in buying a wintertime
jacket is the coldest temperatures you are going to be coming in contact
with, and how much moisture there is going to be.

Goatskin will remain much more plyable and flexable in colder and
wetter climates than just about any other natural hide.

Most leathers will become stiffer in colder, more damp climates, where
as goatskin will still retain almost all of its flexability and natural
water repelancy when other leathers won't.

But when it comes right down to it, there is no substitute for layers. The
more layers you can wear, the warmer you will be. Just look up any
real outdoors guide. They all say that you should wear mulitiple layers
in order to stay warm and dry.

The best single natural, warmest layer you can get is sheepskin. If
you look at a B-3 jacket that is made from actual sheepshin, with the
hide and fur intact, it is the warmest single natural layer you can
buy. It kept bomber crews warm at 30,000 feet. These same bomber
crews also had horsehide A-2 issued jackets, but they were not good
for the high altitude flying that was needed for bombing missions in
sub-zero temperatures.

You can wear a lambskin jacket in winter, if you wear multiple layers
under it. You just have to prepare yourself properly. You would need
at least three layers under the jacket in order to stay warm.

The first layer would be a wicking layer. This would wick your body
sweat from you to the next layer. Then you would want a second
layer, like a demin shirt, or sweatshirt. Then you would want a third,
heavy layer, like a sweater. Then your leather jacket.

All leather jackets are naturally wind resistant, which makes them a
very good outer layer. But in the wintertime, you will need more than
just a one layer leather jacket on, no matter what type of leather it is.
Unless its a sheepskin jacket.

Flathead

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:32 am

Trevelyan wrote:If you truly want a warmer jacket, the goat's not going to make a difference over your lamb. The Indy jacket is just not made for very cold temperatures, due to the lack of insulation and the thin leather.

I second that. I have no illusions about my auth. lamb, should we have a 'traditional' Swedish winter this year. I used to run around in a goatskin jacket when I was a kid, no matter the temperature (ain't no cold season gonna cramp my style

) and needless to sat, that wasn't very comfy. A leather jacket is not a coldstopper in itself - it relies on what garments you wear underneath.

Thus, when I was to choose my Wested, I went with the screen-accurate, authentic version, simply because the type of leather really wouldn't matter in terms of warmth. With the underarm gussets, I'll be able to wear a thick sweater underneath if necessary...

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:09 am

Indeed. Time to update yourself on the Mystery of the Blues gear then...

Fleece can be made very thin and will keep you warm, either as a lining or as a layer underneath. At least that is what works for me.

Good luck!

Regards,
Swindiana

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:49 am

Fleece can be made very thin and will keep you warm, either as a lining or as a layer underneath.

That would indeed make a nice lining for a leather jacket. It would make
it warm, and wind resistant.

Fleece is always a good layer for staying warm. It wicks away sweat,
and keeps you warm even if it gets wet.

Flathead

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:17 pm

I wore my Lambstouch Cow this past winter with a sweater and a scarf and I was fine. No problems.

Which migh prove that I'm as cold blooded as some people say I am.

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:47 am

You've got the sayings mixed up, Ren. It's 'warm hearted'.

*Shines the apple and puts it on his desk*

Regards,
Swindiana

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:23 pm

Factor in the physical weight between the two you mention...goat and new finish cowhide...The new finish cowhide is a VERY heavy leather. I know, I have an LC Wested made in the material, and though I really like the jacket, it's my hard core cold, a blizzard's a coming jacket, as any other variation will just be a bit to warm for those situations. I'd also recommend goatskin, and layer as the weather gets more inclimate. That will necessitate the need to keep to a slightly larger size, like your current lambskin, so you won't have bunching around your shoulders or elbows should you put that extra sweater on underneath. That's what I do with my FS goatskin, and have no problems at all...until it's REALLY cold. Then the new finish comes out....Regards. Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:32 pm

I knew he had installed an FS lining for somebody else, but never knew he'd put in flannel if supplied. Good to know! Thanks, MIKEY. Regards. Michaelson

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:37 pm

Sounds like you have the ideal situation, Michealson... one jacket for every weather condition.

Is the Cowhide Wested offers now the same "Harsh Winter -Blizzard" weight?

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:37 pm

Just to be nosey, where did YOU find it? Or was it something he had on hand? I don't think I've ever seen anything like that before. Regards. Michaelson

Indiana Blizzard · Post by **Indiana Blizzard** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:41 am

I cant say about other jackets but I live in Alaska and it is starting to cool off here I have a cow TOD jacket, and let me tell you it is toasty, also I discovered that I have a fleece liner that fits inside it nicely, when put in my TOD you can only see a little around the collar,one thing about the cow hide is it is quite heavy twice that of a regular leather coat of the same size.

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:34 am

Many companies offer a removable liner such as Beans and Filtons "You Might As Well Have The Best".

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:49 am

I had tried to get a removeable liner put into my first G&B goatskin Expedition but they wouldn't do it. I thought it would be a nice added touch for colder temps. Oh well. It didn't hurt to ask.

I.J.