Webley - The Hero's Weapon

IndyFrench · Post by **IndyFrench** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:51 pm

Hey all,

It's September 15, and as such there is something you Indy LC fans should know about the coveted Webley MK VI. Not only was it the standard sidearm for British forces in the late 19th century, the sidearm of brave Tommies during World War I, including Lawrence of Arabia, and the gun carried by Indy in Last Crusade, but it was also the preferred weapon of some of history's bravest heroes.

The pilots of the Royal Air Force in WWII preferred the old Webley MK VI to the standard Enfield revolver when they flew into combat. That was the gun they wanted with them if they were ever shot down behind enemy lines.

Speaking of those pilots brings me to Sept 15, an important day that people need to recognize, so let me take a moment to share this with you.

Today is September 15. Here in the U.S., it doesn't mean much, but it should. Great Britain marks September 15 as Battle of Britain Day, and on this day in 1940 in the skies over London, an aerial siege that had gone on for over two months was finally broken.

As Americans, we still bask in the glory of WWII and remember the sacrificies of our brave soldiers at Pearl Harbor, Omaha Beach, Iwo Jima, and in the skies over Europe in the Flying Fortresses. However, few Americans know that before December 7, 1941, the United States was strictly neutral and isolationist.

Europe was begging for help, literally being overrun by the darkest evil ever manifested in man. The Nazis, it seemed, could not be stopped. As Poland, Belgium, and Holland fell and the French surrendered, one tiny island nation found itself alone with its back to the sea, the last hold-out against Hitler's armies.

They begged for help. The U.S. sent supplies, but remained isolationist in the grand scheme. Britain was alone, with a devastated army swimming back from Dunkirk, and a badly outnumbered group of Royal Air Force pilots being the only line of defense against the still advancing Luftwaffe. As many have dubbed it, this was history's narrowest margin.

These brave pilots, whom Winston Churchill dubbed "the Few," flew day and night against the seemingly endless Nazi bombers and fighters. In Hurricanes and Spitfires, they held the line, but just barely - many dying in the skies or maimed beyond recognition. These were men defending their homes, with no thought of running. Of course, there was no where to run to, except the Atlantic.

These pilots' sacrificies effectively stopped Hitler's unstoppable advance. They faced daunting odds, often 4 to 1, but they held their ground. Were it not for them, D-Day might never have been, nor North Africa, for there would have been no effective staging ground to launch a counterattack against Fortress Europe.

Incidentally, there were 7 documented Americans who flew in the Battle of Britain with the RAF. These men defied the U.S. government's threat of imprisonment and fines for the greater good. Yes, the U.S. made it illegal to join foreign armies during it's neutrality policy, but these men answered the call anyway, the majority of them dying before Pearl Harbor.

In short, the RAF pilots who flew and died in The Battle of Britain gave freedom a slim chance of succeeding - they carved out hope with their blood. Take a moment on September 15 to remember these men, not just the 7 Americans (and the many other Yanks who claimed to be Canadian that we will never truly know) but every - single - pilot who died so the world might live.

"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. " - Winston Churchill

Webley owners, give your guns a second look today and always remember that in history's darkest hour, it was the Webley MK VI that accompanied those men into the sky.

Mike

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:39 pm

Such a great post. Thank you, IndyFrench. Hat's off to my brothers and sisters in Britian.

bink

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:42 pm

Very well put, Mike.

My own Grandfather was RAF, battling with the rest of the lads in the face of such adversity.

He was and is my hero.

Thank God for those brave men and women from all corners of the globe who stood up to be counted when it mattered. I am thankful and proud.

Regards,

Alan

TheReverend · Post by **TheReverend** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:36 pm

Fantastic info! I never knew that much history behind the Webley.

However, few Americans know that before December 7, 1940, the United States was strictly neutral and isolationist.

Just a slight correction, Pearl Harbor was '41

Regards,
IndyCoill

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:41 pm

Incrdible post! What an awesome history lesson.
Thanks for that, French.

'Blues

IndyFrench · Post by **IndyFrench** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:41 pm

Sorry about the Pearl Harbor date typo. Merely a typo, nothing more - Although it is embarrassing to have that happen.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:17 pm

IndyFrench wrote: However, few Americans know that before December 7, 1941, the United States was strictly neutral and isolationist.

Very true. I meet an awful lot of Americans who seem to think that because WWII ended with them, that it started with them, too. They don't know about the two and a bit years of warfare that the Brits, Aussies, Candians, Indians, etc, were doing to try and stop Hitler before Pearl Harbour.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:36 pm

Well, I always liked the saying:

"Don't start none, won't be none"

The U.S. ...we're ###### if we do, and we're ###### if we don't.
Should be our new slogan.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:53 am

Yep, it's a #### tricky position to be in, when you state one thing (eg: "Let's be isolationist..."), then a madman starts running all over Europe. Truth be told, the US was supporting the UK in non-military ways before Pearl Harbour, but a lot of it was kept close to people's chests, less it look like the US was saying one thing, but doing another.

Turbo · Post by **Turbo** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:32 pm

Thanks

Nice for someone to recognise it and make such a post

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:09 pm

A lot of those pilots were carrying reconditioned and sent through Lend-Lease, Colt New Service revolvers, rechambered to .455, by the way. Regards. Michaelson

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:18 pm

That post gave me the chills. Bravo to the Brits in the skies, my fedora is off to them. You know, this may just be my morbid sense of curiosity, but I've often wondered if my Webley ever took a life. I guess I'll never know, but it does make you think, though...

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:27 pm

It had several chances. The Webley MkVI was a favorite of aviators during the FIRST world war, as they would take them up on pre-dawn flights and take pot shots at the enemy when they flew by. This was WELL before the introduction of the mounted machine gun, and before a man would be approved for flight school, had to prove his worth with a Webley and/or Colt revolver in a target range test. So, your Webley had two known World Wars to do its 'duty'. Regards. Michaelson

PADDY · Post by **PADDY** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:54 am

A fine tribute from a fine group of people. They shall not grow old, as we grow old...Thank you for that.

Gater · Post by **Gater** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:16 am

Britain was alone,

I wonder if you are considering Canada a member of the monarchy in this statement, and therefore do not consider us another country??

Canada took up arms and fought alongside our British brothers pretty much from day one. Our history and culture is FILLED with war heroes...alas, we do not, as of late, step up and provide the proper recognition that we should, as any of our 'talk radio' hosts will attest to.

There is a new state-of-the-art war museum being built here in Ottawa, and our city is peppered with War memorials, including this one, a memorial for WWI

http://public.fotki.com/gater/indiana_gater/mem.html

that's myself and Rob Kilgour this past May.

If you find yourself bored one day, in front of your computer, I invite anyone to take a few moments to read up on Canada's role in the World Wars, and our heroes.

As the first member of my British family to be born in Canada, I am proud of those who fought against the odds, and gave their lives so I might be free.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:23 am

I'd say you were being lumped under the British banner. Don't worry... happens to us, too

Even when you wind back to WWI, and the Australian army being the only thing between a rampaging pack of Germans and the French coast along great swathes of the frontline (and winning)... yep, great 'British' win, that

And, while I'm on a roll... per head of population, Australia lost more soldiers in World War I than any other nation; we lost more than the Russians, the French, the Germans, the Austrians, the Italians, the Candians, the Indians and the Americans. Not the kind of statistic one can get excited about - but one that will never be forgotten.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:36 am

Wow, I never knew about the Australian casualties! Thanks for that bit of clarification. God bless 'em all.
bink

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:40 am

Most of those radar operators who were spotting the incoming Germans and alerted the RAF so THEY could scramble their planes to meet them (fooling the Germans into thinking Britain had more planes than they really had) were Canadian. We had an elderly gentleman (now deceased) who was a student of ours who told the story of the Battle of Britain, and where he was based and what was involved. Absolutely unbelieveable what they ALL went through...not just the RAF, but everyone supporting them as well. It could have gone either way. Regards. Michaelson

Gater · Post by **Gater** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:04 pm

This Sunday is a Battle of Britain aerial display at the airport here in Ottawa

http://www.forceaerienne.forces.gc.ca/n ... 9/10_e.asp

but unfortunately I don't know if I can make it. I'm sure gunna try. I will take pics if I can go.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:44 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:Wow, I never knew about the Australian casualties!

Yeah, it was a very heavy time for the country, which was really just starting to really develop, to lose "the bloom of its youth" just like all the other countries; however, the proportion of this "bloom" was soooooo much higher, per head of population, it created a population imbalance that lasted many years. You can't just replace all your fittest 20 year old guys overnight...

IndyFrench · Post by **IndyFrench** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:33 am

Hey Gater,

I was including Canada with the Brits, as they were heavily represented by the RCAF. Also, I have not forgotten their contributions on D-Day at Juno Beach as well. The Canadians, according to many historians, took almost as horrific a beating as the Americans did at Omaha, just not as long as the U.S. did.

The Canadians were there from day one. When I used the term "alone" I was referring to the fact that Britain was Hitler's last West-most target for the short term before he was to move on Russia. Hence, Britain was the last country in Western Europe standing.

No, I have not forgotten the Canadians.

As a matter of fact, Christopher Plummer's character in the film Battle of Britain is a member of the RCAF.

Mike

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:57 am

Twenty-five Australians were considered eligible for the Battle of Britain clasp to the 1939–45 campaign medal. Other Australians flew during the battle with RAF Bomber Command and Coastal Command, but the total number involved in the battle did not exceed 35. At least 10 Australians were killed in action, a small fraction of the 537 RAF Fighter Command pilots who died.

John Herington relates the deeds of some Australian Battle of Britain pilots in the official history, Air war against Germany and Italy 1939–1943 , including the story of Flight Lieutenant Desmond Sheen of 72 Squadron RAF, who destroyed five German aircraft. Seven other Australians became aces during the battle by shooting down five or more enemy aircraft. One, Pat Hughes of Cooma, who shot down 14 German aircraft, was among the leading ten aces of the battle.

More here: http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/battle_of_britain/

Capt Farrell · Post by **Capt Farrell** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 12:42 pm

Frenchy,

you are so spot on. Yes we are now (in the UK) just remebering the 1944 Airborne drop at Arnhem (A Bridge Too Far?). Basically there are a lot of 60th anniversaries coming up now - buts that no excuse to forget them or ignore them.

My Dad and Mum both fought in WW2. My Dad was in the 51st Highland Division (nicknamed the 'Highway Decorators') as a signaller. He was in most of the European theatres of operations as well as North Africa. He has now passed on. But as I was saying in another forum those Nazi were complete and utter aggressive and arrogant b*****ds. Sadly they only understood one thing - force.

There were also some brave Germans too - they stood up to the insanity of Hitler. However the first concentation camp in Germany opened for business in 1933 - for his political opponenent. Sadly the bomb plot to blow Hitler up by some of the German top brass failed (Von Stauffenberg)in 1944 and the war carried on in into 1945.

Yes, the Battle of Britain gave those arrogant Nazis a taste of defeat for the first time. Incidentally, they also got a bloody nose in 1940 when the BEF was drawn up to hold a line to allow the troops to evacuate Dunkirk.
The British troops who held that line (some of them) were summarily put into a barn and it was set on fire and riddled with MG fire. Nice guys eh?

Capt.Farrell

IndyFrench · Post by **IndyFrench** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 12:51 pm

Farrell,

It is always good to hear from someone across the water. I lived in Weybridge, Surrey from 1990-1993 during my adolescence. In essence, I did a lot of growing up there in England around British veterans and children of the Battle of Britain.

I am of English heritage (we still don't know where our last name, "French", came from) and have an undying respect for those men and the British way of life.

Many have forgotten both in the UK and the US, but there will always be people like us who will never forget.

Regards,
Mike

jack · Post by **jack** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:56 pm

i re-enact the 2nd company coldstreme guards at dunkirk, i'm an officer and carry a webley & scott mark4 .38 service revolver, god only knows why the british army ditched the mark 6 in the 30's, the mark 4 is no comparisent to the powerful .455 mark 6.

jack.

jack · Post by **jack** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:07 pm

the rear guard at dunkirk did give the germans a good fight, but lee enfields, and bren guns couldn't hold out against 88mm and 30,000 men of the 3rd ss division against the 5,000 of the british rear guard, when i re-enact i often stop and think that these guys fought until the last round to give the rest of the bef chance to get off the beaches, whilst they could not. some years back my father worked with a man who was at dunkirk, he was a sergeant who said in anger he fired a piat at a jerry aircraft, then once he had used up 3 rounds he manned a bren gun mounted on a AA stand, this was a day before the rear guard broke, he got away just in time.

captain j burtonwood

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:36 pm

Here is an interesting Webley history page that I just found: http://www.saaaca.org.za/links/SIG/webley/webley.htm

Here's a NICE Webley! http://www.oryansroughnecks.org/webley.html

Gater · Post by **Gater** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:06 pm

I feel at risk of starting a 'flame war', but in my opinion (and what do I know??) That is one UGLY gun.

To each their own, I say, but I just find the shape of it is unpleasant...although I'm sure being on the receiving end of it is rather unpleasant, too.

However, I MUST respect its role in history, and the service it provided.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:13 pm

I dunno, Gater. I've actually come to like the design of it in an antiquated kind of way. Sure, it's big and clunky looking, but it also looks like it means business. Besides, I've always liked the top-break revolvers for some reason.

bink

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:18 pm

And from what I understand about their accuracy down range, they DID make pretty good clubs! I'd love to get one anyway!

bink

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:25 pm

Personally, I find the revolver's post-Art Nouveau design very attractive. The symmetry of the lines, particularly the ridged barrel, give it a very unique look, both timeless and contemporary.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:32 pm

Indiana Gater wrote:I feel at risk of starting a 'flame war', but in my opinion (and what do I know??) That is one UGLY gun.

Ha! They are not what you would expect in a gun today. I personally think the break open style is so unique. Definately a weapon from a different era.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:34 pm

I also like the idea that it automatically spits out the spent casings when you open the gun.

bink

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:36 pm

If I were buying a topbreak today, I'd go for a reproduction Smith and Wesson Model 3, or Scolfield by the same maker....Navy Arms makes both now....but that's just me...

Regards. Michaelson

Webley - The Hero's Weapon

Webley - The Hero's Weapon

Re: Webley - The Hero's Weapon

Bless them all...

Battle of Britain Day

dunkirk

bef