Raiders Turn Question w/PICS

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:57 pm

I'm curious about trying the Raiders turn on my Optimo, and was wondering;
If the hat is already bashed, after finding the perfect center line for the turned front pinch, do you have to do anything to the hat, to avoid seeing any lines from the old pinch and bash??
The Optimo felt is very soft, and it's easy to pop the pinch and dents out, but you can still see a slight line from the pinch when it's pushed out.
I've been reading over $3K Raiders Turn website, and I was blown away at his attention to the smallest details of the hat.

Here are a few pics of the current bash. Kind of a Raiders/LC style.

http://public.fotki.com/IndyBlues612/op ... ate_brown/

'Blues

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:13 pm

His hat was on straight, his head was crooked.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:22 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote:His hat was on straight, his head was crooked.

LOL! So's mine. I think I may have a Raiders Turn shaped head.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:22 pm

IndyBlues wrote:
Bufflehead Jones wrote:His hat was on straight, his head was crooked.
LOL! So's mine. I think I may have a Raiders Turn shaped head.

There you go. That's perfect, then.

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:37 pm

I can't answer your question, Mike. But, that is one sweet Optimo and your bash is perfect! Enjoy it.

Bounty Hunter · Post by **Bounty Hunter** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:39 pm

If I ever has a chance to talk to HF it would be all about the Raiders fed, honestly!

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:42 pm

Hemingway Jones wrote:I can't answer your question, Mike. But, that is one sweet Optimo and your bash is perfect! Enjoy it.

Thanks bro, I appreciate that.

I can basically get the perfect look by turning the hat slightly, but then the pinch is off center. I always thought Indy wore it off center, but I guess I was wrong.

As far as actually meeting Ford, I probably would stammer like an idiot until he decided it was better to just walk away, lol

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:48 pm

Hey Blues,

I can't answer your question either, but the hat looks great. How long have you had this one? Didn't you wear an Akubra Fed to Gettysburg? I don't own an Optimo, but I have seen some. They are very nice lids. I guess you'll have to wear this one next time, eh?

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:53 pm

Yes, I did have an Akubra Federation at Gettysburg, but it was a bit tight, and was giving me headaches, so I sold it, and bought the Optimo. It is definately a fine hat, and thanks for the kind words. Next get together, I will definately be wearing this Bad Mamma Jamma.

Besides the turn, do you think the hat needs any other tweaks???
I think the pinch could be a little tighter, and maybe the back of the brim a little less curl. From the top of the hat, it has a nicely defined "arrow" shape to the bash, so I'm happy with that, I just may work that pinch a tad more. What do you folks think?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:00 pm

IndyBlues wrote:Yes, I did have an Akubra Federation at Gettysburg, but it was a bit tight, and was giving me headaches, so I sold it, and bought the Optimo. It is definately a fine hat, and thanks for the kind words. Next get together, I will definately be wearing this Bad Mamma Jamma.

Besides the turn, do you think the hat needs any other tweaks???
I think the pinch could be a little tighter, and maybe the back of the brim a little less curl. From the top of the hat, it has a nicely defined "arrow" shape to the bash, so I'm happy with that, I just may work that pinch a tad more. What do you folks think?

As far as the Akubra, it fit fine, you probably got the headaches from sittin' next to me and Dr. Evil at lunch.

When I first saw the pictures, I thought the front pinch was not defined enough and the front dents needed to be pushed in deeper. I was thinking that must be the LC part of what you were talking about. But, the more that I looked at it, the more I thought that you shouldn't push them in any more or it would be too much.

So maybe the front a little tighter. I wonder if it is just the way it shows in the pictures. I agree that the shape looks nice from the top, even though that picture seems to be a little blurry. The shot from the top is what makes me think you shouldn't do a lot more to it. The bottom line is, bring it so I can see it in person.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:10 pm

...and I forgot. I have never been a big proponent of the Raiders Turn. I just don't see it as something Harrison Ford did to his hat. But, even if I did, I personally could not wear a hat that way as I am too anal about the way something feels when I wear it. It would drive me totally crazy to wear a hat turned a bit and not centered on my head. I just wonder how many minutes it could be on my head before I couldn't stand it anymore.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:05 am

I am in the group that thinks "the turn" was a happy accident. As many of you know, if the hat is soft and floppy, you would never know the hat was turned, unlike a stiffer hat. A stiffer hat is darn right uncomfortable, if turned. It makes my head hurt. I think he put it on, it had a slight turn, it was styled while on his head, the same as I do all of mine. One thing is for sure. You can't get the complete Raiders look without the turn. And, it is not the crown that really changes, it is the brim. That brim distortion is one of the things that makes the hat look so cool to me. I like em' both ways though. I like the variety. Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:30 am

You turned it good, Indy Blues. Here's a couple pics from my site. (One from the "That's what scares me" shot.) In both, you can see evidence of the old front pinch. I moved my dead center front pinch a little, leaving evidence of two pinches right next to each other, and it looks like Ford did too.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am

Thanks guys, I appreciate the kind words. $3K, Is there anything you DON'T know about the Raiders fedora??? Man, I would have never spotted that second pinch crease. Incredible eyes you've got there.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:24 am

3M$, you must really start to wear that hat. It looks the same as it did when you bought it a few years ago.

regards, Fedora

indy81 · Post by **indy81** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:44 pm

Hey Blues, that is one fine looking Optimo. Might be my monitor, but is the ribbon on it black? It looks good whatever it is anyway.

Regards,
'81

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:03 pm

Blues, the Optimo looks awesome with the turn - my chocolate brown is turned (by Marc) and (I think) it's totally 'raidersesque'.

When I turned my Akubra (currently for sale at a very reasonable price, interested parties see classifieds

) I slowly worked the 'straight' pinch out with my finger and thumb and kind of slowly worked the move of the pinch over to where I wanted it with a little steam from a boiling pan. Looking at the hat now, I can't really see where the old pinch was.

As the Optimo is a much thinner felt, I'd imagine the turn could be achieved more easily without leaving too much battle-damage.

Either way, it's a beautiful hat my friend!

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:29 pm

indy81 wrote:Hey Blues, that is one fine looking Optimo. Might be my monitor, but is the ribbon on it black? It looks good whatever it is anyway.

Regards,
'81

Thanks guys. '81, it is indeed a black ribbon. I think it looks good with the darker brown of the chocolate colorer felt.

OB1AL, I'll have to test it out, see how well I can conceal the old crease of the pinch. Luckilly, It isn't "over" pinched yet, so it should be OK.

indy81 · Post by **indy81** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:30 pm

I agree, the black ribbon gives a better contrast to the darker brown body. Besides I always thought that the original had a black ribbon anyway.

'81

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:40 pm

I saw Joe Sr. do it too while visiting his shop. Regards. Michaelson

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:45 pm

Just can't resist throwing my tuppence in the pot here...

My Fed and brown Optimo are turned and I can honestly say IMO there is no difference in terms of comfort. When your hat is turned, it doesn't feel like it's 'on wrong' or uncomfortable in any way - it just looks more like a Raiders hat.

In fact, I would go so far as to say the turned hat is more comfortable than a 'straight bash' after a while- you just get used to it and the hat gets used to being worn that way.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:47 pm

Instead of speculating on it for years, why doesn't someone simply write a letter to Harrison Ford and ask him?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:57 pm

If I knew all the answers, I'd still come back and talk to you guys.

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:00 pm

Well that's nice Bufflehead

- the question is, would we still be here to talk to?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:02 pm

I certainly hope so. If not, it would just be a good reason for my wife to put me to work.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:11 pm

Well, first of all concerning Deborah...from everything I've ever read in regards to our hobby (including Indy John's personal interview), she thinks we're all a 'hoot' to pursue this as a hobby, and for a while completely ignored any request for interviews or detail s. She finally relented, but when it came to asking specifics, she would pretty much reply' who can remember, and who cares?" So, she's not exactly one I'd approach regarding something like this. Heck, she really didn't even want to reply to the glove question, since she didn't design any for Ford.

As for Ford, I doubt if he even remembers, personally. Kinda like the gloves....they just grabbed a pair. Who's going to remember how they pulled a fedora on, or why, in any particular scene?

Regards. Michaelson

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:29 pm

The letter would never get past Ford's agent, and if by some chance of fate it did, Ford would just bin it I'm sure. What does he care about 'if the hat was turned' or whether the gloves were Wells Lamonts? He doesn't ever wear a hat!

I'm afraid it's up to us faithful few, us bunch of dedicated hobbyists to unwrap the secrets of the past with our gear excavations.

It might all change if and when Indy IV goes into preproduction. Oh yes, then they'll come crawling to our door and be only to happy to spill the beans about the turn and the gloves...

Wazzat? Time for my medication eh? OK guys, have to go - but remember, once you know how the trick was done it's not magic anymore.

Indiana Jess · Post by **Indiana Jess** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:41 pm

Michaelson wrote:I saw Joe Sr. do it too while visiting his shop. Regards. Michaelson

Michaelson, do you know if Joe Sr. does the dimensional cut after blocking with a turn? it seems to me if someone turns their hat after it already has the dimensional cut it would throw off the brim proportions.

ob1al wrote:Wazzat? Time for my medication eh?

Don't forget to wash those meds down with a pint of Guinness!

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:45 pm

It's cut after the turn, if I recall correctly. Like you say, I don't see it working otherwise. The were working on blocks the day I was there. Regards. Michaelson

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:49 pm

Sometimes I believe we all stand in the proverbial Venice library, with our Aldens firmly planted on the huge X.
When it comes to the overall look of the fedroa (I dare you, VP!), it's just the perfect combination of crown height, dimensional cut avec some Swales flare and then, the turn. The answer to the mystery lies right out in the open, thanks to the enormous efforts of devoted gearheads.
Naturally, we seek reassurance: what would be greater than having the wise Nadoolman, the great Ford or even the magnificent Spielberg/Lucas duo confirm our speculations? That would be nice - but do we really need them? As stated in the above posts, they haven't got a clue. As for certain aspects, we know more than they do.

This community shouldn't sell itself short - the concentrated expertise gathered on COW would be enough for a couple of movie production units, a flock of hatteries and a veritable pile of doctoral thesises on virtually every subject even remotely related to Indiana Jones.

The "Raiders Turn" theory is proven correct several times around here, IMHO. How come, you ask. Well, we do have top men working here... top... men.

(The term "men" was chosen in order to end post with humoristic connection to the movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark", not as a sexist remark and should therefore not be subject to any gender-related discussion.)

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:55 pm

I see it as one acceptable theory, but then that's just me....oh, and Scan...it's not 'fedroa'...it's 'hat'.

Regards. Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:04 pm

When your hat is turned, it doesn't feel like it's 'on wrong' or uncomfortable in any way - it just looks more like a Raiders hat.

Just try that with a PB, or other hat with stiffener.

I agree, on softer hats, no problem. Fedora

Indiana Jess · Post by **Indiana Jess** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:12 pm

Does turning the hat only work when the hat has already been blocked before?

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:35 pm

I think the turn has something more to do with the oval shape of the crown, than if it was ever bashed before.
Fedora is correct, my Optimo is very soft and lightweight, and turning the hat slightly doesn't change the way it feel on my head very much.
Try putting your hat on sideways, and taking a look at the brim.
Talk about wavy gravy,

'Blues

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:17 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote:I certainly hope so. If not, it would just be a good reason for my wife to put me to work.

HA! And you say that I'M lazy! It just goes to show that we should be bunking in the same cabin.

As for turning the hat... I think that it must be more comfortable to wear with a thinner felt, but I can't bring myself to do it. I like my fedoras to develop their own character over time...

bink

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:23 pm

Does turning the hat only work when the hat has already been blocked before?

The turning actually only works the best under these conditions. 1) The hat has been blocked straight on. 2) The dimensional cut has been done in this original straight on block. So, now you put the unbashed hat on your head, turn it to your right a little bit, and then put in the first bashes, or creases, while it is on your head. I usually line up the front pinch that I am making with my nose. Then, you can take it off and refine it. The action of turning the hat distorts the brim, and this is what you see on Indy's Raiders fedora. A distorted brim, that many think looks really cool. Me included. But, I also like the hat not turned as well. I like the variety. A good reason for owning a minimum of two hats.

Of course, any true Indy fan will also own a LC fedora, and a TOD fedora too.

Yeah, my motive is to sell a few of my hats.

regards, Fedora

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:29 pm

Well, i think you all may like this new turn I've tried. Take a look at the ultimate Indy turn, EVER!

Behold:
http://public.fotki.com/IndyBlues612/op ... ate_brown/

check out the last two pics

'Blues(figuring everyone could use a laugh)

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:31 pm

I changed my mind! I'm all about the 90 degree turn!!!!

bink

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:08 pm

I just got converted to the Raiders Turn. Fedora, can you send me one of your new hats in the IndyBlues Raiders Turn style. I think we can call it an IBRT. I can't wait to get it and show Mrs. Bufflehead.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:26 pm

If we request a turned hat from you with your new line of hats, will you then reblock it like Peters Bros. does to build that turn into the hat, or will you let the wearer's head distort it?

I will do it the way it was done for the film. That was just a normal blocked hat, with the normal dimensional cut. I can turn it and then style it. That is the way to go. I don't understand the PB method, although with a stiff hat, you would have to do it their way, otherwise you would have a real big headache each time you wore it.

Fedora

indy81 · Post by **indy81** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:08 pm

So with a Fed Deluxe having a dimensional cut to begin with, it will make for a good Raiders turn? Is that the idea I'm getting here? I was getting worried that you had to turn it before the dim cut, which in that case I'd be out of luck. regards,
'81

zohar · Post by **zohar** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:22 pm

indy81 wrote:So with a Fed Deluxe having a dimensional cut to begin with, it will make for a good Raiders turn? Is that the idea I'm getting here? I was getting worried that you had to turn it before the dim cut, which in that case I'd be out of luck. regards,
'81

It is shown here in Pyro's terrific thread ( http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic ... light=turn ) that a Fed can be turned after the dimensional cut, and look most assuredly Raiders-like. In fact, the dim cut probably helps it do so.

PS, I wish that thread was sticky'd.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:33 am

Ford's turn, about 2/3 of an inch. His head was kind of a long oval and I think the hat was quite snug. Someone with a rounded head and/or a looser hat, will need more turn, even up to nearly 90 degrees. This would require a repositioned bow and putting the dimensional cut in after the turn. The optimum turn should be different for everyone. Click the link below to go to my site, then click "Gallery of the Turned Hats" at the bottom- seems a 1 1/2 inch turn is working for a few of hat turners...

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:04 am

The 90-degree-turn...

excellent!

I think that should be mandatory in all the "mugshot-avatars" around here.

VP · Post by VP » Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:34 am

Blues didn't do the turn correctly. He forgot to move the center crease. But now the curl on the ribbon side is nice

.

BTW, I have a copyright for the 90 degree turn. I tried it last thursday.

Me too, zohar.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:20 am

Fedora, maybe I'M the one that misunderstood the PB method, so take what I've said with a grain of salt. It was 108 degrees that day I visited, and I was in bad need of coffee (which I did get across the street, but that's another story

), so there's a better than even chance that I completely misunderstood what they were doing. I wouldn't be surprised.

Regards. Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:40 pm

Yeah, I am not sure either Michaelson. You could do the cut, and then block the hat off center, but I don't see how this would give you the distorted Raiders brim. It would be just an off center dimensional cut doing it that way. regards, Steve

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:52 pm

Well, if your head is distorted like mine, wouldn't that fit just the same...Uh, never mind...don't answer that one...

Regards. Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:50 pm

Okay, I'll keep this one to myself, though the temptation is GREAT!

bink

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:54 pm

Ah, go ahead, bink. May as well beat Jess to it...

Regards. Michaelson