Club Obi Wan

I'm watching Raiders now and I've noticed that the black hat that Toht wears in Raiders has a very, very similar block shape to the hats that Ford wears in the movie. I'd wager that if you creased Toht's hat like Indy's it would look identical. Not only that, but the bow is almost identical. What are the chances that Lacey's hat was also made by Richard Swales? This is just something I've never noticed before and found interesting.

Dave

I have often thought the same thing, but I'm almost positive that Toht's has a little more taper. Still, I think it very possible. I've heard it was a Christy's or Borsalino, but I've never ruled out Swales.

Well, Toht's hat has a very deep center crease in it. Considerably deeper than Indy's hat, that could be the perceived taper. When Indy whips away the pocker in the Ravenbar, Toht turns around for just a second and we get a glimpse of his hat from behind. I swear, it was Indy's hat I was looking at. I've also heard that it may have been a Christy's and I've heard the Borsalino connection too. But to me, that block shape AND the bow are just too much for me to ignore.

Dave

Not sure how this works, but if D.N. was the only costume designer used for the first film, she may very well have gotten it from HJ. OR, it may have been a hat on loan from Nathan Bermans, the place she dry fitted Harrison with all of those old hats, to arrive at an idea of what she wanted for the hero. Fedora

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99667814@N ... 454205815/

I believe someone here posted that you can make out the old HJ logo in Toht's hat and if thats the case then it very most likely came from them in one way or another as Steve pointed out. I hope to get more time to speak to Deborah Nadoolman again not about the Indy costume but about many of the other character costumes in the film. I already have a long list of questions and I'll add Toht's hat (and glasses) to the list.

Thanks Jason. That bow is really what sold me on this idea. It is just way too close to the one on Indy's. Let me know when you know more. From what I can tell it looks taller. Blocked at about six inches, I'd say, and creased down a bit giving it the taper we see in some scenes. Any info would be awesome. I never paid much attention to this hat until last night. Now I can't stop thinking about it.

Dave

No problem at all. I had Optimo make me one of these hats based off of screen grabs and this is the result.

Here's one more next to two Indy hats so you can compare. Different angles I know, but at least it's something to look at and make some assumptions.

Very nice. I like Optimo's hats. I like the picture with the MP40. Very cool. The comparison shot was nice too. I'm glad I'm not the ony one that sees this, though I don't think itd sway me either way.

Dave

Oh, I've always loved this hat. Next to Indy's it was a no-brainer for me.

agent5 wrote:I believe someone here posted that you can make out the old HJ logo in Toht's hat

A while back 3K$ posted that he thought this:



...was the HJ blue shield logo in the liner of Toht's hat. Like this one:




I don't believe there's enough definition in the Toht photo to be definitive. Regardless, I'd bet he's right!

- Mac

Yeah, I thought it was 3K but I wasn't sure. Anyways, here is a larger pic. A little grainy at full size but if you shrink it down it's not so bad. Better than standard dvd anyways.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3519/400 ... 446e_o.jpg

Wow, I can't believe this came up! One thing I distinctly remember is talking with Swales about this - he said to me, face to face, that he did not make the Toht hat and elaborated to state that he would "never put an edge like that in a film," referring to the bound edge of the brim. I guess he wasn't much for bound edges.

Anyway - I asked Swales about the Toht hat in 1986 and he said he did not make it.

Perhaps it was another "Australian model" just in black without a dimensional cut yet still cut down and a bound edge added.

To me it always looked like a cut down brim. Cut down from a wider more curved brim... in turn making it look a little flatter than what you'd find on a vintage hat. Also looks like they just tossed a binding on their after shortening the brim.

Darth, I'd take Swales at his word on this matter. As Fedora said, the hat could have been stock Berman and Nathans and not necessarily part of the Raiders order from HJ.

It could be an old HJ (or Christys, or Lock for that matter) that B&N had on hand in basic black - perfect for the villain.

- Mac

Does anyone else notice the felt bulging over the ribbon in the back? I'll try to get some screen grabs tomorrow but to me, this looks a lot like the Hero hat felt.



Dave

I always assumed that it was a HJ.
Even if it wasn't specially made for Raiders, as others pointed out the hat could have been from B&N and therefore it's very possible that it was a HJ. The felt might also be of the same grade and quality because Bermans warehouse did not stock only "old stuff". I'm sure that a felt from 5-10 years before could have been just as good (or as bad) as the Raiders felt.
The fact that Toth's hat was ALSO in Tunisia, could account for the felt acting in a similar way to the Indy hat (buldging).

Might the blue ray disc help us with that frame?

Mattdeckard wrote: To me it always looked like a cut down brim. Cut down from a wider more curved brim... in turn making it look a little flatter than what you'd find on a vintage hat.

Actually, it all depends on the softness of the brim and type of brim on the hat. You are probably used to seeing the "snap brim" which is most common. Basically the brim shape relies on tension to be either up or down. Some brims respond to varying degrees to hand shaping, especially the softer type that Toht seems to wear. I can get this look on a few of my hats, even a snap brim. I just don't like how it looks on me.

Does anyone else notice the felt bulging over the ribbon in the back? I'll try to get some screen grabs tomorrow but to me, this looks a lot like the Hero hat felt.

If the hat manufacturers used the same felt supplier (not hard to believe), and you consider that they were probably bashed by the same person and "aged" in a similar fashion, it's not that strange to see this. I don't think, anyway.

On a related note, I think I finally puzzled out the pinstripe mystery with the suit. I recently saw a jacket that was all black, but had a striped texture. It played with the light in a way similar to Toht's, even causing the illusion of gray and red to show up. Colors often thought to be in the suit.